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Dean 
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
 Posted: October 15 2012 at 21:05 |
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[enable subjective mode]
I don't like horn drivers in a home speaker system - if you like them then that's fine. But that's just my personal preference - I think they're great in a concert hall.
[disable subjective mode] Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 21:06 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 20:49 |
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I feared this was the case - I have not been espousing the superiority of Digital music in any of my posts - if that is your conclusion from my explanations then you have read them the wrong way or made assumptions I didn't intend to make. You made technical claims about digital media that I simply refuted. I also offered up the reason why valve amplifiers sound warm and less harsh than solid-state based upon the theoretical, the known and the measured characteristics of valve circuits - because I used the word "distortion" you have taken that to be a bad thing, but as I have said: it is not if it sounds good to you. Any change you make to a signal from its original source is termed distortion - if you adjust the tone control on your amplifier you are introducing distortion into the signal because you are changing the sound from the original source into something new. Distortion is what remains when you subtract the original source signal from the signal after it passes through your system - that is the definition - distortion is not a thing that makes a horrible noise and it does not always make things sound worse, it is simply the change in a signal from input to output. If you take a harsh tone like a square wave (for example from a brass instrument) and filter it to produce a smooth sine-wave you have distorted the original signal - the resulting sound is nice and sonourous and a pure tone without all the harmonics that make up a square wave so it is a distortion of the natural sound.
I bought my Pickering cartridge in 1979 (this I remember because I was working in Edinburgh and I bought it with my first pay-cheque after moving there) ... I'd never heard any digital sounds back then and was using it on my Thorens turntable with a Leak valve amp and some and home made speakers - I simply prefered what I heard compared to the Shure.
I once owned a Dual turntable and thought it a bit pants to be honest.
Sorry I never asked for your advice, but thanks anyway. I suggested you corrected my apparently poor advice to Nick (aka progbethyname) and made recomendations to him.
Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 20:50 |
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 20:16 |
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I don't see how that determines whether I am open or closed minded or
how you managed to deduce that before I mentioned the brand of cartridge
I have in one of my turntables. How very astute of you.
Everyone I know that swears by their digital media over analog has things like Stanton or Pickering cartridges.. or Dual Turntables.. or things like NAD or JVC solid state amps. When they hear what a decent rig can sound like, they quickly change their opinion. It's usually a slap on the forehead.. WOW! I don't think it has been an unreasonable deduction from reading your posts on the superiority of Digital music that you are falling into the same category... that being one who doesn't have the kind of setup that can really bring out what a proper vinyl recording has to offer. My suggestions to you would be to keep the Thorens, but upgrade your cartridge and get a good restored vintage tube amp like an HH Scott or a Fisher 800 (I think the Scott's have better sounding tube driven phono stages) then make sure your speakers have at least one quality horn driver in them. You should be able to get all that done for around a grand. Not that big an investment if you really love music. And no.. I am not selling anything or pointing anyone toward any one else. Thanks for the record pressing link. I'll give them a try on our next release. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 20:02 |
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There is a lot to be said for taking ownership of your setup and experimenting. As a professional engineer and an amatuer hobbyist I cannot help but fiddle and tweak, it is ingrained in my nature. With fully integrated systems and with a lot of digital setups the ability to do that is not lost, it's just a lot harder to do. I use a little 10W valve amplifier connected to my laptop driving a pair of 5" bookshelf speakers, not for any pretentious reasons, but simply because it was fun to do and I could do it. And regardless of how pointless that is, it does sound a lot better than the nasty little plastic Logitech speakers I used to have.
Digital studios are tools to use - you still need skills to mike-up instruments properly to achieve the sound you want - no amount of analogue or digital studio trickery can compensate for a job badly done at that stage. And the same is true of track EQ and mixing - how you use the tools is the same and hasn't changed, a digital studio cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. It's more than just pushing a record button, there is still a lot of work to do and satisfying achievements to be made.
I don't recall ever stating my preference one way or the other. I think I actually said I have no preference ... and that seems to be a bigger crime here than taking sides.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 19:03 |
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Yes it is a subjective statement but it says nothing about analogue or digital and I would find Portnoys over abundant use of fills distracting in any medium.
I don't see how that determines whether I am open or closed minded or how you managed to deduce that before I mentioned the brand of cartridge I have in one of my turntables. How very astute of you.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 18:37 |
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...and what of the other 700 vinyl albums in my collection?
Subjective opinion and personal opinion is fine by me. If you think this is valid for justifying your preference for vinyl over digital then as I have said countless times before - that's fine by me. If you think the one setup I listed is inadequate to tell the difference between analogue and digital then I guess I should go out and sell my vinyl albums now. Which is a shame because I really like the big print on the covers.
In your subjective assessment it is and you prefer the sound you hear but you have not proved it is "more detail" - you have just used the words "more detail" to describe what you hear when in reality you have not proved whether that is more detail or less detail. You haven't even defined what detail is in this instance. I have attempted to demonstrate that the frequencies and voltage levels you believe are present in analogue and not in digital are either present in the digital or not present in the analogue - you have not demonstrated that my explanations are wrong, all you have said is my hi-fi equipment is not good enough to tell the difference, which is irrelevant since I did not use my setup (or anyone elses) in any of my technical explanations.
You are entitled to that opinion. If the articles contain factual errors then I am entitled to dismiss them regardless of how arrogant that makes me appear to you. If the articles did not contain factual errors then I would not be dismissive of them.
I made no suggestion on brands or models, I simply observed that his JVC amplifier was capable of damaging his HD800s and suggested he use a purpose built headphone amplifier instead. If you wish to use that to beat me around the head then go ahead.
PS2: If you think my suggestion to Nick was unsound or wrong then please for his sake correct that now instead of taking cheap shots at me. (The album is Look At Yourself, I bought my copy in 1973 if I remember correctly and the mirror on the cover is not very good and it distorts, which I think was the whole point, but I digress). I would hate it if he spent money following my suggestion that was unnecessary or would make things worse. If you think my suggestion was in fact not an unreasonable one then perhaps you could put your expertise and knowledge to good use and make some positive recommendations of brands and models that would be of benefit to him, or even make your own observations, comments and suggestions on his set up like he asked.
Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 19:32 |
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 18:09 |
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I waste time and energy on valve amp designs and construction and spend money purchasing modern vinyl albums such as Gong, Muse, Portishead, Radiohead, Steven Wilson etc
Ok, this is making sense. Are you not aware that these modern vinyl pressings are coming straight off digital feeds from programs like Pro Tools and then being pressed onto vinyl? The vinyl itself is not going to make the music sound better. I would agree.. just buy the CD at that point and avoid the clicks and crackles. I don't know of a modern vinyl pressing plant that is cutting vinyl masters direct from half track reel to reel mastering decks anymore. If you know of one, by all means, please let me know. No. People say "Analogue has more detail" and then run away. I ask "where is this detail?" and get no response If I am so very wrong then refuting what I write should be a piece of cake It is a piece of cake now knowing a bit about your analog set up. I can see why your ears are not making a distinction. When I had my Thorens deck with a Pickering running through an NAD amp.... I would have been much more likely to side with a digital argument.. but not with a Goldring 1042 off a Music Hall 5.1 running into a Scott 340B which has one of the best all tube phono stage pre amps ever put into an integrated amp pushing 7591 Output tubes. I'm not even running a Legacy series cartridge. Not running from anything. Detail is right there in the speakers mate. So yes, I feel entitled to be dismissive, Well, that is a bit arrogant isn't it? Entitled? Well then, I feel entitled to proclaim that is one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever heard. I never comment on peoples equipment and rarely make suggestions or recommendations (on brands or models). You seem to have worked out the setup needed to match the HD800s - a purpose built HP amp could be the next step because a 250W amp can produce more voltage than the HD800s can handle and that will damage them - while you would never use them at those levels, accidents do happen (young kids playing with the volume control when your back is turned kind of thing). If you do consider that route then obviously listen to what you are buying first and don't just buy on spec or by looking at price tickets. Those headphones can also be used with portable equipment if you invest in a suitable portable HP amp. Again - buyer beware - there are some high-priced rip-offs on the market. Sounds like you just commented on someone's equipment, AND made suggestions. you're really something! What was that Uriah Heep Album with the mirror on the cover? |
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Loren
Forum Newbie 
Joined: September 13 2011 Location: Indiana U.S.A. Status: Offline Points: 23 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 17:59 |
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I enjoy an even mix of both CD and Vinyl.
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 17:53 |
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Nope. I have made no subjective comparisons or assessments.
Everyone here will tell you I hate Portnoy's fills. Well, that is quite a subjective statement isn't it? You have no concept of the open or closed nature of my mind, you are making assumptions based on what? For starters.. how about the fact you are using a Pickering Cartridge? That pretty much explains everything. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 13:59 |
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Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 14:01 |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17846 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 13:45 |
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I posted my comments on page 7 (I think)......I may have had a question there also about your setup or description.
cheers!
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 13:16 |
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 Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 13:20 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 13:14 |
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Nope. I have made no subjective comparisons or assessments.
But never mind.
Everyone here will tell you I hate Portnoy's fills.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 13:05 |
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You have no concept of the open or closed nature of my mind, you are making assumptions based on what?. You have no idea what my preferences are simply because I haven't stated them, I do not confuse preference and subjective opinion with objective fact and in these posts I have tried to keep any subjective bias well removed from the scientific facts (you seem to assume that I prefer digital over analogue when I have made no such claim, why would I waste time and energy on valve amp designs and construction and spend money purchasing modern vinyl albums such as Gong, Muse, Portishead, Radiohead, Steven Wilson etc, etc. if I was so narrow and/or closed minded one would ask).
No. People say "Analogue has more detail" and then run away. I ask "where is this detail?" and get no response, so I offer explanation why analogue cannot have more (or less) detail than digital and those people who make those statements remain silent. All I want is a counter argument, that is what discussion entails. If I am so very wrong then refuting what I write should be a piece of cake - if the noise-floor of a stereo cartridge is not 80dB and if that is not the same noise-floor as a 13-bit DAC then the proof should be trivial. So when I say that a Goldring Legacy cartridge cannot resolve any more detail than a digital sample of 13-bits shooting that down in flames should be a walk in the park. But all I get is "it sounds clearer to me" or some other such similar subjective comment. And that is not good enough.
Posting articles (not facts) from other web sites is fine, but you are not the author - when I question something in that article that I am sure is a factual error (such as those you posted last night) you cannot answer me and that is very unsatisfying for both of us. When I say "Oh, he got that wrong - sampling does not quantise frequency" you cannot explain to me why he/you think it does because you are not Jimmy Reds and you did not write that article. But if you want to make a post explaining that then please, be my guest - it is very possible I have misunderstood what he has written - because obviously you did understand it or you would not have cut'n'pasted the article here for me to read.
So yes, I feel entitled to be dismissive, whether you find that laughable or not, because when people make fundamental errors in what they write and cannot explain themselves there is little else I can do.
Of course there are differences in subjective opinion - that's why they are subjective. I starting to wonder if it is me who doesn't understand what the word "subjective" means here - perhaps someone (not you) can enlighten me.
I never said that the warm colouration is wrong - if you like it then that means it is good.
Excuse me, but where the <<expletive deleted>> did that come from? Please do not make this personal. If you must belittle what I write then do so, but do it by refuting what I write using facts and solid argument. Making fun of me is really poor.
I'm not going to itemise my equipment here as that's not a game I enjoy very much. I will tell you that my Thorens deck and tone arm is perfectly set-up and balanced and the Pickering cartridge I use is far superior to my tin-plated cloth-ears than the Shure M95 it replaced - I only say that because I found your unwarranted comment about my ability to set the damn thing up just a little insulting. How you have the nerve to make judgements like that without knowing what my setup is (let alone without <<expletive deleted>> hearing it) just because I do not agree with your subjective opinions beggars belief. [
]Yup I have copper speaker cables, and I can go into great detail as to why I have copper speaker cables and I can counter all the pseudoscience you can drag up to refute the using of copper speaker cables because all of that pseudoscience is based upon a very poor understanding of electronic signal transmission theory and if you do not understand electronic signal transmission theory at something like degree level then I would recommend not getting involved, because what I have read thus far on the subject by audiophilist "experts" has been just a little embarrassing.
Hmm. "Subjective" ... anyone?? Edited by Dean - October 15 2012 at 17:14 |
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7849 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 12:39 |
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Also. Does anyone have any comments or suggestions about my current audio set up that I posted on page 5? Be nice to get any idea at all by how I can improve it. Thanks so much and great forum. Definately one of the better ones I've be a part of. Thank you guys.
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 12:29 |
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Dean,
Your logic is also extremely subjective by only basing things on science. It is like saying Dream Theater is better than Rush because Portnoy can play fills faster than Neil and Petrucci can play chromatic scales faster than Lifeson. Any arguments that suggest Rush is better are purely subjective rubbish because you own the facts. Songs, Lyrics, textures, feel are just subjective nonsense that has nothing to do with the clinical structure of music. Let me guess... you like Dream Theater better than Rush? |
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progbethyname
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 30 2012 Location: HiFi Headmania Status: Offline Points: 7849 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 12:25 |
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SACD format as well which has a pulse modulated code of 24/96. Marillion remasters from 1998 and Depeche mode albums as well. Best quality I've ever heard. |
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Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Surrealist
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2012 Location: Squonk Status: Offline Points: 232 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 12:19 |
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Dean,
Why would I not copy and paste facts from other sites who offer more detailed information and explanations? Certainly you have discredited everything I have said or been laughably dismissive. In your close minded world of science, 1's and 0's cannot be wrong. If that is so.. then why are some CD players better than others? Why are there digital audiophiles? Does that not prove there are differences in subjective opinion even in the clinical factual world of digital music? In your world.. you make the case that flat, cold, and lifeless recordings are simply the way music should sound. That this is the REAL sound and one better get used to it. Anything rich, warm, natural sounding is simply caused by a flawed stereo system that is adding "color" to the truth and because it sounds so much better, it must be wrong and due to analog distortion. Your writings would make for a great comedy skit on SNL. I can picture a character who is dressed like a metal head but wears nerdy horned rim glasses who critics the music people bring in and the character keeps repeating "well, that ain't digital mate" if it's a record, and "sounds like heavy metal" if it's a CD or an ipod. I can tell you for a fact Dean.. you DON'T have a good vinyl set up or you would speak otherwise. You are most likely basing your subjective opinion on listening to a substandard cartridge, an unbalanced tone arm, radio shack interconnects, solid state amplification or a tube amp that is not working at proper voltages, copper speaker cables, and probably low efficiency speakers without horn drivers. Anyone of the issues just mentioned could make for a inadequate listening experience playing vinyl records. Catcher, I can tell has a quality rig, as he mentioned some of the gear he has in his set up. It's been thought out and some attention to detail has been integrated. This is why he prefers vinyl. It sounds better.. it's not very subjective. Just have two ears and a listen. |
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17846 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 11:27 |
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^ ahh ok that makes sense.....he just did not mention DVD-A.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: October 15 2012 at 10:44 |
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He is refering to DVD-Audio or DVD-A format - since it is a DVD standard it's not covered by the Philips/Sony rainbow book standards, which are for CD not DVD.
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the importance of analog sound in prog
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Surrealist wrote:
