Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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CCVP

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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:38

darkshade wrote:

I don't know if Dave Mustaine sings as much as he snarls.

Here in Brazil he is known by some as Quake Mustaine, because people say he sounds like a duck quacking. Tongue

Also, he quacks well enough.

Edited by CCVP - August 02 2012 at 23:40

Triceratopsoil View Drop Down

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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:51

ducks are pretty metul

dvck

Edited by Triceratopsoil - August 02 2012 at 23:51

CCVP

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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:55

why not QVACK?

richardh

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 01:47

Epignosis wrote:

I'm sorry I have not read the thread, but I read the excerpt from the interview.

I agree with Stolt, but not for the reasons he mentions.

When I think of "progressive music," I think of music that progresses in and of itself: That is to say, a piece of music that is adventurous or dynamic, as opposed to pure pop which has a verse and a chorus. Progressive music for me is that which explores rather than just entertains.

The definition Wilson gives that progressive artists must in some way "progress" (i.e., find something new and venture into new styles) has always been silly to me. Some bands do very well with that (King Crimson, er Bob Fripp, made a career out of it, but he is the exception here, and a likely one since KC was hardly ever the same band at all). Imagine if Yes had, after Fragile, took what they had stylistically as a band and made disco (an emergent genre at the time): Would that have been considered progressive rock? Well, many bands went toward popular music (and disco!) and progressive rock fans have regarded many of those albums as rubbish. What progressive rock fans wanted was more of what they had fallen in love with. Hence the rise of "Neo-Prog" bands like Marillion and IQ. They were doing in the 1980s what Yes and Genesis ceased to do.

So no, Steve. I don't want my prog to sound like Nickelback, thank you very much. I want bands to make the music they want to make, and I will continue to be the judge and jury with respect to their product.

Derivative trumps boring anyway, I say.

very well put but the problem that many have is that modern neo or symph prog is just copying something that has already been done rather than trying to forge a new way or approach. ELP ,Yes and Genesis never copied other bands.

You comment about Yes not changing style after Fragile and so invalidating themselves as 'progressive rock'. Yes created the syle and they owned it so why should they then change? Flower Kings and nowadays Glass Hammer seem to be trying just to replicate it. Pointless unless they are going to improve it and that is simply not going to happen.Yes on the other hand looked to improve what they were doing up to Relayer at least. After that I think some criticism is deserved. They were not untouchable!

You also state that prog rock fans in the eighties were just looking for more of the same. Not sure about that although nostalgia will of course play a part in any appreciation of music whatever the style. WIthout that Roine could safely give up!

The eighties was a problematic decade however. The rise of MTV and bands that were really a front for some prodcuer left a dearth of interesing music which perhaps allowed the likes of Marillion and IQ to establish themselves. But this was of course partly because they could go out and perform the music live unlike many eighties pop groups and that was also important.

In terms of 'proggessiveness' there were artists like Kate Bush,Peter Gabriel and few others that showed the way forward and if you looked hard enough there was some modern progressive 'rock' music. I would say Propaganda (German band produced by Trevor Horn) made the album of the decade A Secret Wish. It had plenty of progressiveness even by the definition you use but was distinctly modern in approach. It was possible to do this and always has been.

I do like some retro prog (Glass Hammer pre 'If',Anglagard and Par Lindh Project but not much else) and I have no problem with Wilson not liking those bands and stating so. If he wants to big up his own music then fine.Wilson has found a brand of modern rock that sounds sophisticated and deals with emotions and feelings. I like this and it makes my collection and listening experience a bit more rounded I believe so I applaud him.

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 03:31

It's funny that Steven Wilson is remixing the ELP catalogue, a band that reinforce every prejudice people have about progressive rock: old-fashioned, pompous,pretentious. Is Elp was not a band that was going to the past with his take on old classic songs? He would say that he has nothing wrong to say about the best 70's band, but only for those who are influenced by them. Is ELP better than Mussorgsky? Isn't that redundant and pointless?

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 05:33

Epignosis wrote:

When I think of "progressive music," I think of music that progresses in and of itself: That is to say, a piece of music that is adventurous or dynamic, as opposed to pure pop which has a verse and a chorus. Progressive music for me is that which explores rather than just entertains.

The definition Wilson gives that progressive artists must in some way "progress" (i.e., find something new and venture into new styles) has always been silly to me.

This.

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 05:56

I find it rather sad that Steven Wilson would name and shame bands like that in an interview, its one thing to voice an opinion on a genre/sub genre its another thing to label a band the DEATH of Progressive music. I'm a huge fan of Steven Wilson, I've met the man and found him very courteous and generous with his time, so these comments surprise me. I've read he doesn't like the Prog tag, thats fine, I get where he's coming from, bands should be progressive and their is some truth in the fact TFK and Transatlantic are more Proggy than Progressive, they do wallow to some extent in the music of the 70's, but I like their take on it, so I can only think something has been lost in translation so to speak within the interview or at least I hope thats the case. I find it hard to believe that Steven Wilson who has been working with nearly all the big names in Prog would so categorically distance himself from the likes of TFK etc...I find it all very contradictory, I met him only 3 weeks ago in London, he was in the bar at Celebr8 Prog Festival, watching band like IQ, Pallas and The Tangent, doesn't strike me as a guy who hates the music...

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 06:31

richardh wrote:

I don't have time to respond to the whole post, but I have to address this before I go.

ELP, Yes, and Genesis were all to one degree or another "copying" other bands.

I know when I started I would have been happy to sound like the Beatles or Joe Tex or whoever. You want to sound like most bands, you want to sound like their records and that's how you learn your chops. - Jon Anderson

ELP essentially sprang from an earlier band called The Nice and Emerson's desire to do renditions of classical pieces (that's not exactly original, is it?).

Genesis began as pretty much a pop band.

So no, Yes did not "create" a style. TFK and GH won't "improve" a style because stuffy codgers would never allow them to. No musical style exists in the background. All musicians owe a debt to other musicians. This is inescapable.

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 07:45

I think it's funny to know what SW think about bands that got the 70's feeling when the man himself released Grace for Drowning, an album that feels like a King Crimson album. SW may be an amazing producer and a good composer but I think that he is very pretentious and over-the-top guy

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:18

The T wrote:

Mellotron Storm wrote:

The T wrote:

Steven Wilson is rather close to an imbecile when he opens his mouth. When he shuts up and plays his little simple instruments he fares way better.

Anyway, if what he's being doing recently is supposed to be the real standard for real "progressive" rock, count me out of that stupid train. Porcupine Tree is rather always good (except the last album) but Wilson's multiple projects in recent years all make me yawn and get sleepy.

And that's beside the point. He just showed he's a child. He looks like a child, and acts like a child.

I've always said: that one person is extremely good at something doesn't mean they are extremely good at giving opinions, or even that they're intelligent.

Are we talking about the same person here ? Unless your only example is this 7 year old interview which does make him look immature i'd love to see them.

Any interviews i've read with him have been nothing but intelligent and thoughtful. Whether it's about progressive music in general or his work in the studio re-mixing King Crimson, ELP or Jethro Tull he always has my full attention.

The fact most of his music makes you yawn and sleepy is simply your tastes just like classical music bores the hell out of me, no ones right or wrong it's just opinions and tastes my friend.

It's the second or third time he has given pompous interviews. This time he borders on idiocy. But he has shown to be arrogant many times.

Yes, part of what I said was based on my tastes. That doesn't make my very last sentence wrong. It applies perfectly to this case and to the persona of Steven Wilson.

Well again i've never seen a pompous interview with Wilson except the one this thread is based on and i've read most(i think). If you can give me links i'd appreciate it.

Otherwise it's just sour grapes. It seems like when a band or person becomes successful in Prog they become a target. I don't get it especially when Wilson and the more successful Dream Theater do nothing but promote progressive music. Dream Theater have been the whipping boys on this site since i joined and so i thought you would be sensitive to that T.

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:41

I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there...

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:55

Guldbamsen wrote:

I think you hit the nail on the head John. Prog fans are more than anything, people who reside outside of the popular music spheres, and even if most of us whine about not having anybody to share our musical tastes with, at least in real life, - I think we revel in the mystical and selfserving underdog status that naturally comes with the territory. Then we get to know the prog circles better and better, and suddenly this underdog thing barks again and we start digging even deeper for something obscure and unknown. Why? It's simply cool to listen to music nobody else does. Well that is part of the equation I think. The underdog attitude still pushes us forward to find new under the radar music, and when you finally get there, bands like PT and DT suddenly feel enormous - especially due to the constant free advertising they get from people who just happened to stumble over one of their albums and then got to know the word prog. We are constantly reminded of these big bands, and even if they are far from being the huge billionaire acts some of us see them as, they still stand for something that is corporate and big business like. So it becomes 'cool' to hate on these bands - even if they still carry the torch of our much beloved music and continue to draw people in to progressive waters, where they probably at some point will get to know about all those other bands that deserve much more recognition, because they are more underground...? Bollocks!
Oh and this is coming from a guy who revels in the obscure and out there...

Some valid points, but I certainly don't relate to your comment about the whole 'underdog status' thing. I could careless if one of the bands I like are well-known or not known at all. I've ALWAYS listened to music that all my friends never heard of because I was exposed to this music when I was a kid. What I thought was part of the norm was actually not, so when I would talk about Genesis or King Crimson with my friends they would just give me blank stares. People listen to music they like regardless of it's popularity. If people listened to music because it was the 'underdog' thing to do then I think they would be listening for the wrong reasons. It all starts with exposure. From there, people can follow their heart's desire or they can just simply listen to music that they truly deep down inside of them don't care anything about.

Edited by Mirror Image - August 03 2012 at 09:56

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 09:59

Maybe I expressed myself clumsily, but I don't necessarily think people listen to music because of its underdog status, - like I said it was only part of the equation, but I do think they form opinions about music due to it. Most of the times, the big bands feel the result of this.

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 10:15

^ Well said David. I see the word Prog quite often in the Toronto Sun newspaper because the reviewer there uses it when he reviews Rush, Tool, Dream Theater, Mastadon, Muse etc. And yes these are gateway bands to Prog, in fact Fates Warning was my gateway into Prog.

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 10:19

Guldbamsen wrote:

Maybe I expressed myself clumsily, but I don't necessarily think people listen to music because of its underdog status, - like I said it was only part of the equation, but I do think they form opinions about music due to it. Most of the times, the big bands feel the result of this.

Well, there's also the fact that because they are more well known they are more likely to come across large numbers of people that wont like them, which is not going to be such a problem for Cheer-Accident and others.

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 11:10

^ That is, of course, also another factor

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 11:13

mister nobody wrote:

God, Roine could use some English courses.

How is your Swedish, by the way...?

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 13:18

I actually think you are spot on here - at least I've noticed many people seem to hate on the more well known Prog acts and when you look at some of the other music they have given 5 stars to, the only logical explanation is that they don't like these artists because they've been successful. I myself has always loved Prog simply because I love the music, and I've always hoped that the bands I loved WOULD make it big someday. I want them to be successful, and I want more people to know about them.

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mono

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 13:27

If Steven Wilson were a music critic, I would agree with him to a certain extent (and it is quite common to see music critics become "agressive" about old-fashioned bands).
In his case, he is being a bit of a douchebag, as his work is far from being completey "useful" for the future of progressive music. He has made so many poppish songs that could have been written ten to twenty years before, that we cannot have this attitude towards TA, TFK or Neal Morse.
I personnly can't listen to Transatlantic or Morse anymore, they bore the hell out of me, and listen to PT much more often. But that's my taste!

These guys are not the death of progressive rock, they are a branch that did not evolve so much in sound and creativity compared to the seventies (IMO, and left apart the tech advances that lead to have a "cleaner" sound), but what's wrong with that?? It's just a pause in time, and noone can say that being completely new is a must-rule. I personnally like that in a band (surprise, new elements, new sounds, etc...), but I can bvery well understand why (very intellegent and cultured) people listen to TFK, Neal Morse or Transatlantic!

Music doesn't always have to be about who's the next icon of the genre. I think that I tend to look for originality mainly beacuse I am a musician (which I think is at the same time a curse and a blessing for music-listenning, other topic...)

So please come down from your cardboard pedestal M. Wilson and just keep making your music as you like to. Let others enjoy what they like.

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richardh

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Posted: August 03 2012 at 14:57

Epignosis wrote:

richardh wrote:

Emerson only 'copied' (actually he plainly didn't) a band that he had created himself.

Yes started off wanting to be the Beach Boys but 'evolved' or 'changed' or whatever word is best suited. Roine Stolt and the like don't seem that interested in change or evolution

Genesis began as a pop band. Your point is what?

Yes created something very distinct it seems to me as near as you can be to nailing down 'progressive rock' as a style. You claim they didn't create a style but don't offer any reason to support that.

''All musicians owe a debt to other musicians'' just means that we all owe a debt to what comes before.So its okay to copy then and not be inspired?