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PabstRibbon 
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Joined: November 26 2009
Location: Québec
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Points: 925
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 Posted: August 03 2012 at 07:45 |
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I think it's funny to know what SW think about bands that got the 70's feeling when the man himself released Grace for Drowning, an album that feels like a King Crimson album. SW may be an amazing producer and a good composer but I think that he is very pretentious and over-the-top guy
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Epignosis
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 06:31 |
 richardh wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
I'm sorry I have not read the thread, but I read the excerpt from the interview.
I agree with Stolt, but not for the reasons he mentions.
When I think of "progressive music," I think of music that progresses in and of itself: That is to say, a piece of music that is adventurous or dynamic, as opposed to pure pop which has a verse and a chorus. Progressive music for me is that which explores rather than just entertains.
The definition Wilson gives that progressive artists must in some way "progress" (i.e., find something new and venture into new styles) has always been silly to me. Some bands do very well with that (King Crimson, er Bob Fripp, made a career out of it, but he is the exception here, and a likely one since KC was hardly ever the same band at all). Imagine if Yes had, after Fragile, took what they had stylistically as a band and made disco (an emergent genre at the time): Would that have been considered progressive rock? Well, many bands went toward popular music (and disco!) and progressive rock fans have regarded many of those albums as rubbish. What progressive rock fans wanted was more of what they had fallen in love with. Hence the rise of "Neo-Prog" bands like Marillion and IQ. They were doing in the 1980s what Yes and Genesis ceased to do.
So no, Steve. I don't want my prog to sound like Nickelback, thank you very much. I want bands to make the music they want to make, and I will continue to be the judge and jury with respect to their product.
Derivative trumps boring anyway, I say.
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very well put but the problem that many have is that modern neo or symph prog is just copying something that has already been done rather than trying to forge a new way or approach. ELP ,Yes and Genesis never copied other bands.
You comment about Yes not changing style after Fragile and so invalidating themselves as 'progressive rock'. Yes created the syle and they owned it so why should they then change? Flower Kings and nowadays Glass Hammer seem to be trying just to replicate it. Pointless unless they are going to improve it and that is simply not going to happen.Yes on the other hand looked to improve what they were doing up to Relayer at least. After that I think some criticism is deserved. They were not untouchable!
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I don't have time to respond to the whole post, but I have to address this before I go.
ELP, Yes, and Genesis were all to one degree or another "copying" other bands.
I know when I started I would have been happy to
sound like the Beatles or Joe Tex or whoever. You want to sound like
most bands, you want to sound like their records and that's how you
learn your chops. - Jon Anderson
ELP essentially sprang from an earlier band called The Nice and Emerson's desire to do renditions of classical pieces (that's not exactly original, is it?).
Genesis began as pretty much a pop band.
So no, Yes did not "create" a style. TFK and GH won't "improve" a style because stuffy codgers would never allow them to. No musical style exists in the background. All musicians owe a debt to other musicians. This is inescapable.
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The-Winkler
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 30 2012
Location: Harlow newtown
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Points: 125
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 05:56 |
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I find it rather sad that Steven Wilson would name and shame bands like that in an interview, its one thing to voice an opinion on a genre/sub genre its another thing to label a band the DEATH of Progressive music. I'm a huge fan of Steven Wilson, I've met the man and found him very courteous and generous with his time, so these comments surprise me. I've read he doesn't like the Prog tag, thats fine, I get where he's coming from, bands should be progressive and their is some truth in the fact TFK and Transatlantic are more Proggy than Progressive, they do wallow to some extent in the music of the 70's, but I like their take on it, so I can only think something has been lost in translation so to speak within the interview or at least I hope thats the case. I find it hard to believe that Steven Wilson who has been working with nearly all the big names in Prog would so categorically distance himself from the likes of TFK etc...I find it all very contradictory, I met him only 3 weeks ago in London, he was in the bar at Celebr8 Prog Festival, watching band like IQ, Pallas and The Tangent, doesn't strike me as a guy who hates the music...
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
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Points: 1708
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 05:33 |
Epignosis wrote:
When I think of "progressive music," I think of music that progresses in and of itself: That is to say, a piece of music that is adventurous or dynamic, as opposed to pure pop which has a verse and a chorus. Progressive music for me is that which explores rather than just entertains.
The definition Wilson gives that progressive artists must in some way "progress" (i.e., find something new and venture into new styles) has always been silly to me.
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This.
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rdtprog
Special Collaborator
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams
Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
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Points: 5285
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 03:31 |
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It's funny that Steven Wilson is remixing the ELP catalogue, a band that reinforce every prejudice people have about progressive rock: old-fashioned, pompous,pretentious. Is Elp was not a band that was going to the past with his take on old classic songs? He would say that he has nothing wrong to say about the best 70's band, but only for those who are influenced by them. Is ELP better than Mussorgsky? Isn't that redundant and pointless?
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28059
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Posted: August 03 2012 at 01:47 |
Epignosis wrote:
I'm sorry I have not read the thread, but I read the excerpt from the interview.
I agree with Stolt, but not for the reasons he mentions.
When I think of "progressive music," I think of music that progresses in and of itself: That is to say, a piece of music that is adventurous or dynamic, as opposed to pure pop which has a verse and a chorus. Progressive music for me is that which explores rather than just entertains.
The definition Wilson gives that progressive artists must in some way "progress" (i.e., find something new and venture into new styles) has always been silly to me. Some bands do very well with that (King Crimson, er Bob Fripp, made a career out of it, but he is the exception here, and a likely one since KC was hardly ever the same band at all). Imagine if Yes had, after Fragile, took what they had stylistically as a band and made disco (an emergent genre at the time): Would that have been considered progressive rock? Well, many bands went toward popular music (and disco!) and progressive rock fans have regarded many of those albums as rubbish. What progressive rock fans wanted was more of what they had fallen in love with. Hence the rise of "Neo-Prog" bands like Marillion and IQ. They were doing in the 1980s what Yes and Genesis ceased to do.
So no, Steve. I don't want my prog to sound like Nickelback, thank you very much. I want bands to make the music they want to make, and I will continue to be the judge and jury with respect to their product.
Derivative trumps boring anyway, I say.
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very well put but the problem that many have is that modern neo or symph prog is just copying something that has already been done rather than trying to forge a new way or approach. ELP ,Yes and Genesis never copied other bands.
You comment about Yes not changing style after Fragile and so invalidating themselves as 'progressive rock'. Yes created the syle and they owned it so why should they then change? Flower Kings and nowadays Glass Hammer seem to be trying just to replicate it. Pointless unless they are going to improve it and that is simply not going to happen.Yes on the other hand looked to improve what they were doing up to Relayer at least. After that I think some criticism is deserved. They were not untouchable!
You also state that prog rock fans in the eighties were just looking for more of the same. Not sure about that although nostalgia will of course play a part in any appreciation of music whatever the style. WIthout that Roine could safely give up!
The eighties was a problematic decade however. The rise of MTV and bands that were really a front for some prodcuer left a dearth of interesing music which perhaps allowed the likes of Marillion and IQ to establish themselves. But this was of course partly because they could go out and perform the music live unlike many eighties pop groups and that was also important.
In terms of 'proggessiveness' there were artists like Kate Bush,Peter Gabriel and few others that showed the way forward and if you looked hard enough there was some modern progressive 'rock' music. I would say Propaganda (German band produced by Trevor Horn) made the album of the decade A Secret Wish. It had plenty of progressiveness even by the definition you use but was distinctly modern in approach. It was possible to do this and always has been.
I do like some retro prog (Glass Hammer pre 'If',Anglagard and Par Lindh Project but not much else) and I have no problem with Wilson not liking those bands and stating so. If he wants to big up his own music then fine.Wilson has found a brand of modern rock that sounds sophisticated and deals with emotions and feelings. I like this and it makes my collection and listening experience a bit more rounded I believe so I applaud him.
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:55 |
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why not QVACK?
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:51 |
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ducks are pretty metul
dvck
Edited by Triceratopsoil - August 02 2012 at 23:51
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:38 |
darkshade wrote:
I don't know if Dave Mustaine sings as much as he snarls.
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Here in Brazil he is known by some as Quake Mustaine, because people say he sounds like a duck quacking. 
Also, he quacks well enough.
Edited by CCVP - August 02 2012 at 23:40
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Mirror Image
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2111
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:38 |
Anthony H. wrote:
Mirror Image wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
I have said many times that I consider The Mars Volta to be one of the most innovative bands of the 21st century. They are far more interesting (and consistent!) than those who are just trying to be different.
No matter what TMV as done since their inception, one can always tell he is listening to TMV, and not just because of Cedric's voice!
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TMV remind me of a bunch of kids hyped up on Red Bull. To me, their music lacks focus and it just sounds like one chaotic mess. I can barely listen to them and I'm thankful I never have blown my hard earned money on one of their albums. There are some bands that you just have to see what the hype is about. Thankfully, I was inquisitive enough to check them out on YouTube.
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You need to stop saying ridiculous things about TMV. You don't have to like them, but your criticisms of them are absurd.
It would be like me saying, "I hate DT. Just a bunch of guys who play a 16/8 time signature for 38 minutes and think it's cool."
Or, "I hate Univers Zero. It's just a bunch of people farting into bassoons."
It's stupid, and all it does is piss people off.
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I'm just joking around so no need to take it all so personally. I do, however, stand by criticism that their music lacks focus. It's okay to like something that you don't right? I was just making sure before I go and give another one of those absurd opinions of mine.
Just relax man. Everything will be well. The world didn't end because I don't like The Mars Volta.
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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darkshade
Collaborator
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Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
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Points: 10964
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:23 |
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I don't know if Dave Mustaine sings as much as he snarls.
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:22 |
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Anthony H.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 11 2010
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 6088
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:21 |
Triceratopsoil wrote:
I won't judge Wilson for being an a****le because he still falls short of Dave Mustaine, who I happen to quite like.
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If Dave is your standard for sh*ttiness, then everyone is a saint. 
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Triceratopsoil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 03 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 18016
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:18 |
lol didn't see this thread before I, to some degree, agree with Stephen Wilson, but only because the other school of bands mentioned here bores me to tears. Not that I like PT much either... I won't judge Wilson for being an a****le because he still falls short of Dave Mustaine, who I happen to quite like.
CCVP wrote:
Cedric does have a terrible vocal tone, being surpassed
only by LaBrie, and the way he chooses to sing only makes everything
worse. |
also dis
Edited by Triceratopsoil - August 02 2012 at 23:21
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Anthony H.
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 11 2010
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 6088
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:15 |
Mirror Image wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
I have said many times that I consider The Mars Volta to be one of the most innovative bands of the 21st century. They are far more interesting (and consistent!) than those who are just trying to be different.
No matter what TMV as done since their inception, one can always tell he is listening to TMV, and not just because of Cedric's voice!
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TMV remind me of a bunch of kids hyped up on Red Bull. To me, their music lacks focus and it just sounds like one chaotic mess. I can barely listen to them and I'm thankful I never have blown my hard earned money on one of their albums. There are some bands that you just have to see what the hype is about. Thankfully, I was inquisitive enough to check them out on YouTube.
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You need to stop saying ridiculous things about TMV. You don't have to like them, but your criticisms of them are absurd. It would be like me saying, "I hate DT. Just a bunch of guys who play a 16/8 time signature for 38 minutes and think it's cool." Or, "I hate Univers Zero. It's just a bunch of people farting into bassoons." It's stupid, and all it does is piss people off.
Edited by Anthony H. - August 02 2012 at 23:19
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 23:02 |
Mirror Image wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Mirror Image wrote:
Sorry guys, I just don't like The Mars Volta. I definitely don't like the vocalist. He just doesn't jive well with me. I also like more instrumental virtuosity and interplay between the musicians. |
Their albums are hit or miss for me as well. Wile I don't like their most "successful" (mostly boring for me) albums, I like their "bad" albums a lot. Cedric does have a terrible vocal tone, being surpassed only by LaBrie, and the way he chooses to sing only makes everything worse.
All in all, it's a reasonably good band, but I never understood why people like it to the point of LOVING it at all. |
The band is a just a miss for me and I'm glad I didn't waste a whole lot of time on them. I just like the Symphonic Prog stuff more, but, again, this is just my preference. |
I don't have any problem with that. 
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Mirror Image
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Location: United States
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:41 |
CCVP wrote:
Mirror Image wrote:
Sorry guys, I just don't like The Mars Volta. I definitely don't like the vocalist. He just doesn't jive well with me. I also like more instrumental virtuosity and interplay between the musicians. |
Their albums are hit or miss for me as well. Wile I don't like their most "successful" (mostly boring for me) albums, I like their "bad" albums a lot. Cedric does have a terrible vocal tone, being surpassed only by LaBrie, and the way he chooses to sing only makes everything worse.
All in all, it's a reasonably good band, but I never understood why people like it to the point of LOVING it at all. |
The band is a just a miss for me and I'm glad I didn't waste a whole lot of time on them. I just like the Symphonic Prog stuff more, but, again, this is just my preference.
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:37 |
Mirror Image wrote:
Sorry guys, I just don't like The Mars Volta. I definitely don't like the vocalist. He just doesn't jive well with me. I also like more instrumental virtuosity and interplay between the musicians. |
Their albums are hit or miss for me as well. Wile I don't like their most "successful" (mostly boring for me) albums, I like their "bad" albums a lot. Cedric does have a terrible vocal tone, being surpassed only by LaBrie, and the way he chooses to sing only makes everything worse.
All in all, it's a reasonably good band, but I never understood why people like it to the point of LOVING it at all.
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Mirror Image
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 13 2011
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2111
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:33 |
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Sorry guys, I just don't like The Mars Volta. I definitely don't like the vocalist. He just doesn't jive well with me. I also like more instrumental virtuosity and interplay between the musicians.
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“Music is enough for a lifetime but a lifetime is not enough for music.” - Sergei Rachmaninov
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: August 02 2012 at 22:27 |
darkshade wrote:
The problem is, Porcupine Tree is (was) no more progressive than The Flower Kings were (are), so all of SWilson's comments are null and void,
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Quite spot on! 
And please recall that every other project that SW was/is in fails to get as much attention as PT, except for the stuff released under his name and Storm Corrosion, but those are only three bands out of the dozens he had/has.
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Steven Wilson Vs. Roine Stolt
