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dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 21 2012 at 15:15

infandous wrote:

Hi Fidelity is an expensive hobby. A roommate of mine in college had a very nice system, and I would play my CD's on it every chance I got. There is no question there is a big difference between what I have now and what he had then (with mine being cheap crap in comparison). But frankly, I love the music, not the recording, if that makes sense. I can hear all the instruments and nothing sounds particularly bad (well, some of the CD's are from source material that wasn't so great to begin with, but that stuff usually sounds even worse on a high end system).

Dennis, I just realized that my girlfriend (who lives with me) has a 5.1 stereo system that we keep forgetting to set up.........I'm now determined to get that thing set up and give some serious listening to the few 5.1 recordings I have (mostly Porcupine Tree, since a few of the albums were re-released with the 5.1).

Just don't let her hide the speakers behind a potted fern of a bunch of textbooks.

Proper placement is key for the room. Chicks hate speakers in general and will bury them like a squirrel with a freshly fallen acorn. Take her out to a nice dinner and then the next afternoon you'll be able to hang the rear surrounds without interference.

Above you mentioned "the music" and "the recording" these two are always inextricably linked and are not mutually exclusive, though in modern music, some record companies & bands have intentionally engineered music to sound noisy

or bad for purpose of fashion or pop sensationalism.

I am not an audiophile or "audio snob" in the least, but my own ears have seen the power of getting a good stereo together. Today it is not expensive at all. A fine set of 5.1 speakers can be had for around $500.00 and a good enough receiver, $350.00. This kind of system will leave you breathless & speachless after you hear for example the new 5.1 mix of J. Tull Aqualung. Plus you mention your PT 5.1; Whatever people think of Steven Wilson's music, he has a separate talent for 5.1 mixing & production, that is why he is in demand so much to do other people's mixes into surround. You are in for a treat when you get your 5.1 PT running.

Most music from The Guess WHO to The WHO or Flower Kings or ELP, scales up amazing well as you get better quality speakers and equipment. I have learned(from hearing the difference) that its really an obligation to try and improve the sound quality of your stereo because there is so much to hear from a CD that we miss by just having the "basic" system that modern convention says we need.

It really doesn't take much to be blown away!

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 21 2012 at 15:47

sturoc wrote:

I have never gotten into the 5.1 realm. Maybe due to growing up with stereo imaging and Lps were fine. Since the music when performed onstage was usually mixed in stereo thru the mains. Studio tracks were recorded and mixed down in Stereo.
So unless the original was meant to be 5.1 it seems a bit pointless. I always listened to tracks as if I had the band in front of me onstage. 5.1 surround is abit artificial when coming from this philosophy.
As for the audio quality if a format can come as close as possible to being in the control room or as the band played live then that is the ultimate listening format.

BUT the debate here especially gets so spun off since a listener is very subjective due to their own ears, equipment and listening environs.

Hi sturoc,

Please allow me to chime in here and underscore the need for 5.1 in most of the music that we as prog fans enjoy.

First, just to clear up something. Live concerts are almost always mixed in mono. This is for many reasons, one being that sound is relatively slow and reacts very differently in a large arena vs a living room. Second, if a sound mixer used stereo at a concert then vast amounts of concert goers would not hear certain instruments as they sit off to one side or another. Sometimes a live artist will have a stereo effect on his guitar for an occasional impact moment,..

Recordings are made in stereo quite frankly because stereo provides an illusion of "more space"

Stereo: "Sound that is directed through two or more speakers so that it seems to surround the listener and to come from more than one source."

This is an illusion but a very powerful one that we take for granted in all our modern recorded music.

5.1 is the next logical step adding yet more space for the listener to take in all instruments that are being played.

Virtually all music since the 1970's has far too many tracks to fit even in stereo so 5.1 remixing from the original multitrack tapes is very effective and I have learned is a much needed exercise. I have the 5.1 mix of Elton John's Captain Fantastic(1975) and it is alarming to hear how many instruments are on that record! The 5.1 mix really gives all the original instruments more space & clarity. The experience is awesome to say the least. Not all stuff needs 5.1. Rap? No. Punk? No. But I do not have a classic or prog rock CD in my collection that would not be greatly improved by remixing from the original to 5.1. Most original recordings are 16 & 24 & 32 tracks! The engineer had to make great sacrifices to fit those within the stereo field of just 2 channels. He did it cause there was no other choice. Engineers wanted Quadrophonic sound many years ago but the industry just couldn't convince people to buy all the extra speakers, which so were MUCH more expensive then.

One bad thing about 5.1 sound:

You will fall in love with it, then you will want your entire collection remixed to 5.1. Sadly only a fraction of music exists in 5.1. Good news is more and more stuff is coming out in 5.1. New ELP! Can;t wait!!!!!!

I have the entire GENESIS collection that they remixed to 5.1 and it is beyond belief good..

Cheers!

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

JIF8882

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 00:31

The ELP cd that I am replacing from the Shout! Factory bunch is BSS. The rest sound fine to me.

J Dawg

infandous

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 09:31

dennismoore wrote:

Just don't let her hide the speakers behind a potted fern of a bunch of textbooks.

or bad for purpose of fashion or pop sensationalism.

It really doesn't take much to be blown away!

Well to me the sound quality and the musical quality are two different things entirely, always have been (which is probably why I used to enjoy bootlegs so much, despite the crappy sound most of the had). Still, there is no denying that sound quality does effect overall enjoyment of the listening experience.

Sorry, $850 to me is EXPENSIVE. Way more than I can afford for a sound system. Of course, as I mentioned, it looks like I don't have to anyway, so I guess that point isn't all that relevant to me anymore. However, before I lived with my girlfriend, that would have been completely out of the question. If I did have $850, I would buy a new guitar or guitar amp long before I would even think about getting a new stereo (or, better yet, pay down some debt Unhappy

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dennismoore View Drop Down

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Posted: March 22 2012 at 11:32

infandous wrote:

Sorry, $850 to me is EXPENSIVE. Way more than I can afford for a sound system. Of course, as I mentioned, it looks like I don't have to anyway, so I guess that point isn't all that relevant to me anymore. However, before I lived with my girlfriend, that would have been completely out of the question. If I did have $850, I would buy a new guitar or guitar amp long before I would even think about getting a new stereo (or, better yet, pay down some debt Unhappy

)

Understood, I just picked those price points in general. One can get 5.1 for cheaper and of course one can spend much more. But if you realize this expense will be enjoyed for many years, it ends of being a few pennies per day!

How much do you eat out or how much is spent on beer & wine?

There is always a way.

Here is a great site to find super cheap deals on 5.1 receivers & speaker sets, check it often as the site focuses on daily specials.

http://www.techbargains.com/

Mods: this is not spamming, this site is the bomb for cheap b*****ds like me who have to work for a living.

"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire

gtrdave

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Posted: April 22 2012 at 21:57

richardh wrote:

tarkusnj wrote:

< ="text/" ="" ="/B1D671CF-E532-4481-99AA-19F420D90332etdefender/huidhui.js?0=0&0=0&0=0"> [QUOTE=Slartibartfast] [QUOTE=richardh]There have been a load of bad remsasterings of Brain Salad Surgery. My favourite album as well. The DVD audio is not very good either sadly.

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

Are you referring to the Rhino released BSS DVD-Audio?

If so, I couldn't agree more. I received a copy of it years ago and on the first listen I knew that it was a bad representation of the original, seeing as how many of the vocals are not the 'takes' that were on the original album.

Same goes for some of the keyboard parts (KE9 1st impression part 2 to be specific...maybe others).

That DVD-A and a few others released around that time tended to give 5.1 music a bad reputation, imho.

If you're referring to another DVD-A release of BSS, I'd love to know which one and if it's better than this drinking coaster that I've got here.

As far as Steven Wilson getting involved in 5.1 mixes, I'm thinking it's a good thing. He's been a fan of the format from back when we (we being dts, where I used to work) released In Absentia and Deadwing in 5.1.

If he does justice to the original by creating complimentary surround mixes then I look forward to hearing them.

btw: first post here. I stumbled upon the forum via a search and I hope to stick around for a while and talk about one of the best music genres ever. :)

Edited by gtrdave - April 22 2012 at 21:58

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Posted: April 22 2012 at 23:22

JIF8882 wrote:

The ELP cd that I am replacing from the Shout! Factory bunch is BSS. The rest sound fine to me.

Forgive me for asking, but what problems did you have with the Shout version of Brain Salad Surgery? Not that I don't believe you, I just want to compare observations.

To me, that version of BSS sounds a tad bass heavy and Carl Palmer's drumming doesn't sound as clear as it should. Are these the same issues you have or were there other ones?

He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!

richardh

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Posted: April 23 2012 at 01:44

gtrdave wrote:

richardh wrote:

This is not meant to be sarcastic but I would check your equipment or your hearing. Or I would just assume you have poor judgement.

I really hate that DVD audio version with a vengeance! So so bland.

Are you referring to the Rhino released BSS DVD-Audio?

Same goes for some of the keyboard parts (KE9 1st impression part 2 to be specific...maybe others).

That DVD-A and a few others released around that time tended to give 5.1 music a bad reputation, imho.

If you're referring to another DVD-A release of BSS, I'd love to know which one and if it's better than this drinking coaster that I've got here.

If he does justice to the original by creating complimentary surround mixes then I look forward to hearing them.

btw: first post here. I stumbled upon the forum via a search and I hope to stick around for a while and talk about one of the best music genres ever. :)

Hi there , good to have you on the forum!

Re the BSS DVD audio its not just the vocals (actually the vocal on Jersusalem is good on that version ,the only thing I like on it) but the synths and the horrible bass drum sound. Palmer had a very percussive style where the bass drum is not used in the same way that its used by say someone like Nick Mason. That DVD -A represents the band poorly in my view.

As I said earlier in the discussion I don't have a surround sound system or a high end hi -fi but I do know what I like.

richardh

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Posted: May 09 2012 at 13:39

A bit more information I had by e-mail today from cd-services:

These ELP 3 Disc Sets have been rumoured for a while, but no we can confirm that they ARE to be released soon! Following on from his stunning work done on re-issues of classics such as: KING CRIMSON's 'In The Court Of The Crimson King', CARAVAN's 'In The Land Of Grey & Pink', JETHRO TULL's 'Aqualung' and the forthcoming 'Thick As A Brick', STEVEN WILSON set about the task of adding his subtle touch to the following two ELP classics, and in the process created 5.1 Surround Sound versions of both. Each Triple Disc Set contains a Remastered Album in its Original Version, a 2nd Disc featuring a Remastered Alternative Version and the 3rd Disc is a DVD-Audio containing the album Remastered for 5.1 Surround Sound. So, this is not just yet another run-of-the mill regurgitation job on classic ELP... this is something different... the albums are sprinkled with that magic Steven Wilson fairy dust that seems to bring them back to life in a way that music fans wants to hear them!

EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER: ELP

Classic Album Triple Disc Set: - 2 CD's and a DVD-Audio:- CD1 is the Original Album Remastered, CD2 is an "Alternate" Version of the album and the DVD-A is Steven Wilson's 5.1 Surround Mixes.
I wonder what 'Tank' and that Moog solo on the end of 'Lucky Man' are going to sound like in 5.1? - Can't wait!

Track List - Disc 1 [CD - Original Album Remastered]:
01.     Barbarian
02.     Take A Pebble
03.     Knife-Edge
04.     Three Fates
i.)     Clotho
ii.)    Lachesis
iii.)   Atropos
05.     Tank
06.     Lucky Man

Track List - Disc 2 [CD - Alternate Version]:
01.     Barbarian
02.     Take A Pebble
03.     Knife-Edge
04.     Promenade
05.     Three Fates: Atropos [Piano Trio]
06.     Rave Up
07.     Drum Solo
08.     Lucky Man
09.     Take A Pebble
10.     Knife-Edge
11.     Lucky Man
12.     Lucky Man

Track List - Disc 3 [DVD-A - 5.1 Mixes]:
01.     Barbarian
02.     Take A Pebble
03.     Knife-Edge
04.     Three Fates: Atropos [Piano Trio]
05.     Rave Up
06.     Lucky Man
07.     Barbarian
08.     Take A Pebble
09.     Knife-Edge
10.     Promenade
11.     Three Fates: Atropos [Piano Trio]
12.     Rave Up
13.     Drum Solo
14.     Lucky Man
15.     Take A Pebble
16.     Knife-Edge
17.     Lucky Man
18.     Lucky Man

EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER: TARKUS

Classic Album Triple Disc Set: - 2 CD's and a DVD-Audio: - CD1 is the Original Album Remastered, CD2 is an "Alternate" Version of the album and the DVD-A is Steven Wilson's 5.1 Surround Mixes.
I can't wait to hear what Steven Wilson has done to this epic work!

Track List - Disc 1 [CD - Original Album Remastered]:
01.     Tarkus
i.)     Eruption
ii.)    Stones Of Years
iii.)   Iconoclast
iv.)    Mass
v.)     Manticore
vi.)    Battlefield
vii.)   Aquatarkus
02.     Jeremy Bender
03.     Bitches Crystal
04.     Only Way {Hymn}
05.     Infinite Space {Conclusion}
06.     A Time And A Place
07.     Are You Ready Eddy?

Track List - Disc 2 [CD - Alternate Version]:
01.     Tarkus
i.)     Eruption
ii.)    Stones Of Years
iii.)   Iconoclast
iv.)    Mass
v.)     Manticore
vi.)    Battlefield
vii.)   Aquatarkus
02.     Oh, My Father
03.     Bitches Crystal
04.     Only Way {Hymn}
05.     Infinite Space {Conclusion}
06.     A Time And A Place
07.     Unknown Ballad
08.     Mass

Track List - Disc 3 [DVD-A - 5.1 Mixes]:
01.     Tarkus
i.)     Eruption
ii.)    Stones Of Years
iii.)   Iconoclast
iv.)    Mass
v.)     Manticore
vi.)    Battlefield
vii.)   Aquatarkus
02.     Jeremy Bender
03.     Bitches Crystal
04.     Only Way {Hymn}
05.     Infinite Space {Conclusion}
06.     A Time And A Place
07.     Are You Ready Eddy?
08.     Oh, My Father
09.     Unknown Ballad
10.     Mass

Snow Dog

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Posted: May 09 2012 at 13:42

I always prefer Tarkus split into separate tracks. Like on the LP and my CD.

warp2600

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Posted: June 30 2012 at 02:18

richardh wrote:

A bit more information I had by e-mail today from cd-services:

Each Triple Disc Set contains a Remastered Album in its Original Version, a 2nd Disc featuring a Remastered Alternative Version and the 3rd Disc is a DVD-Audio containing the album Remastered for 5.1 Surround Sound.

SW confirmed that these 2 sets will not include DVD-Audio discs but only DVD-video with DTS surround sound Cry

and a high resolution stereo mix. However, the negative feedback for this decision from fans was overwhelming, which SW forwarded to the record company and said there is a chance for including high-res surround mixes in the further releases.

BTW, I am contemplating paying some serious $$$ for the 2008 3cd Deluxe edition of BSS, which includes the SACD said to be a DSD transfer of the Rhino DVD-Audio mix.

Edited by warp2600 - June 30 2012 at 02:18

richardh

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Posted: June 30 2012 at 03:10

warp2600 wrote:

richardh wrote:

A bit more information I had by e-mail today from cd-services:

SW confirmed that these 2 sets will not include DVD-Audio discs but only DVD-video with DTS surround sound Cry

the deluxe edition of BSS was a big disappointment to me although perhaps I don't have the equipment to appreciate it to be honest

if you don't have them already then I would recommend the deluxe editions of Pictures and Welcome Back My Friends. Both are excellent quality and Pictures has an audio of the 1970 Lyceum gig nicely cleaned up.

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Posted: June 30 2012 at 03:52

[/QUOTE]

the deluxe edition of BSS was a big disappointment to me although perhaps I don't have the equipment to appreciate it to be honest

[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the recommendations. I had no idea there were Deluxe editions of those.
As for BSS Deluxe, I am mostly in it for the SACD. It is said to sound slightly better than the DVD-A. It is out of print and goes for insane amounts of money so I would be better off waiting for the new set announced by Razor and Tie albeit there are no details about that one.

CCVP

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Posted: June 30 2012 at 11:54

INB4 Steven Wilson releases a triple solo album inspired by ELP.

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Posted: July 06 2012 at 12:28

Here is the full press release on the R&T reissues with 5.1 Surround Sound

RAZOR & TIE ANNOUNCES RE-ISSUES OF LEGENDARY

PROG ROCKERS EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER’S DEBUT ALBUM AND TARKUS. BOTH ALBUMS AVAILABLE AS

3-DISC DELUXE SETS ON SEPTEMBER 11

Albums To Include New 5.1 And Stereo Mixes

Both Albums To Be Released On Limited Edition 180 Gram Audiophile Vinyl

Special ELP Merchandise Pre-order Bundles Now Available Now At http://elp.merchnow.com

The Emerson, Lake & Palmer 40^th Anniversary Concert To Exclusively Premiere On AXS TV This August

(New York, NY) – Razor & Tie is set to release the first two Emerson, Lake & Palmer re-issues of the band’s first two albums: Emerson, Lake & Palmer (1970 – Studio Album) and Tarkus (1971 – Studio Album) on September 11th. Both records will be available as 3-disc deluxe editions containing never before released 5.1 Surround Sound and Stereo Mixes, including previously unheard out-takes. Three time Grammy-nominated producer and engineer Steven Wilson (who has also recently remixed classic albums by Jethro Tull and King Crimson for acclaimed 40th anniversary editions) worked from the original Greg Lake produced multi-track tapes to remix both albums.

Fans can also purchase Emerson, Lake & Palmer and Tarkus deluxe editions at http://elp.merchnow.com/ where the albums will be bundled with a variety of ELP t-shirts perfect for any collector. Pre-orders are available now for the deluxe albums, vinyl re-presses and a selection of Emerson, Lake & Palmer t-shirts.

Emerson, Lake & Palmer and Tarkus will also be released on limited edition 180 gram audiophile vinyl. The records will be re-pressed and released with their original packaging and track listings. The vinyl re-presses will be available September 11^th as well.

Both albums will also be digitally, specifically mastered for iTunes by Grammy-award winning engineer Brad Blackwood (Alison Krauss & Union Station, Maroon 5, North Mississippi Allstars, Saving Abel).

AXS TV will also exclusively premiere the Emerson, Lake & Palmer 40^th Anniversary concert this August. The legendary Rock Band reunited to celebrate their 40th Anniversary and headlined London's first High Voltage Rock Festival. This was the historic moment when Emerson Lake and Palmer performed for the first time since 1998. This spectacular performance with extravagant special effects and lighting recaptured the magic and musical genius of Keith Emerson, Greg Lake and Carl Palmer as they performed their greatest hits in front of thousands of fans and leaving a lasting memory of the stunning musicianship of these three legendary performers.

Razor & Tie’s full catalogue re-issue campaign will continue with the release of newly expanded, re-mastered, editions of four additional ELP classic albums: Pictures At An Art Exhibition (1971- Live Album), Trilogy (1972- Studio Album), Brain Salad Surgery (1973- Studio Album), and Welcome Back My Friends To The Show That Never Ends – Ladies & Gentlemen (1974- Live Album).

Considered by many to be one of rock’s original first super-groups, Emerson Lake & Palmer formed in England in 1970 consisting of Keith Emerson (keyboards), Greg Lake (bass guitar, vocals, guitar) and Carl Palmer (drums, percussion). The band created a brand new world of music, combining classical and symphonic rock fused with beautiful vocals. Their penchant for appropriating themes from classical music and the group’s more nuanced, textured approach to symphonic arrangements set ELP apart from their more bombastic guitar-based contemporaries of the time. This subtler and more sublime approach carries on today in the expansive atmospherics of Radiohead and Muse and also in the prog-influenced sphere of band’s like Porcupine Tree, Dream Theatre, Opeth and many others, making ELP one of the more relevant torchbearers of the progressive rock sound. Along with Yes, King Crimson, Genesis, and Rush, Emerson Lake and Palmer ushered in the Prog era and as one of the most commercially successful rock bands of the 1970’s having sold over 40 million albums. ELP’s dramatic flair, sincere passion, labyrinthine song structures, and symphony-worthy virtuosity proved that classical rockers could compete for arena-scale audiences as the band headlined stadium tours around the world.

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Posted: July 06 2012 at 16:10

$20 for the vinyl remaster.......That's a deal! I have a German print of Tarkus from 1972 that is pretty darn good, a bit noisy in the begining but everything else is good......Side B is pristine (I have played it maybe 3x.....

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Posted: July 06 2012 at 20:50

BobNYC wrote:

Here is the full press release on the R&T reissues with 5.1 Surround Sound

PROG ROCKERS EMERSON, LAKE & PALMER’S DEBUT ALBUM AND TARKUS. BOTH ALBUMS AVAILABLE AS

3-DISC DELUXE SETS ON SEPTEMBER 11

Albums To Include New 5.1 And Stereo Mixes

Both Albums To Be Released On Limited Edition 180 Gram Audiophile Vinyl

Thanks BobNYC, Smile

I already have ordered both from Amazon.co.uk. Too bad USA release is later. Stupid release dates always different. Why not just sell the stuff to us, ok? Why jerk around the true fans with all the different release dates???

Anyway, as soon as those fine English gentlemen send me my copies across the Atlantic I will be BLASTING the 5.1 mix so loud, the bloody Queen of England will be able to hear it!

Approve

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richardh

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Posted: August 26 2012 at 03:39

Edited by richardh - August 26 2012 at 16:43

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Posted: August 26 2012 at 09:01

Fox On The Rocks wrote:

Great! My Tarkus is damaged

Percussion, sir!

richardh

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Posted: August 26 2012 at 16:43

So they are now here!!

Been listening to Emerson,Lake and Palmer's debut- alternative version. Not much change on Take A Pebble or The Barbarian but then Knife Edge has noticeable changes on the vocals (I like) and a different ending (I don't like). Side Two in old money now starts with Promenade from Pictures At An Exhibition (with vocals) followed by just the 3rd Fate . There is a completly new track called Rave Up which is totally brilliant and shows ELP getting together as a band. Tank is completely gutted (Steven obviously doesn't like jazz rock he he) just leaving the drum solo. Lucky Man is largely left intact though. The effect of this is to balance out the solo material with much less emphasis on Emerson keyboards especially. Do I like it overall? On first listen I'm not sure to be honest but its an interesting experiment and at least you still have the orginal version to listen to all nicely remastered (an excellent job done in this respect). I will give my opinion on SW's Tarkus later.