Losing interest in prog

 

Dear Vibrationbaby,

 

Yipes!!!  And after I had your back on Love Beach in the ELP thread.  Et tu, Brute???

 

Ok, you want the truth? My two cats could kick your dog's butt all over that military runway(in your avatar)

 

As soon as I typed my comments, I knew some jazz cats would get their hair all in a piffy, so, I prepared to defend myself, prior...  First of all, you took my comments out of context as my claim was that classical is on top of the food chain and that Jazz is in fact wondrous music.   So are you ready?  Here it is:

 

Jazz in fact uses a lot of whole tone scales that allow playing together withought "interval clashing".  This is how a jazz bass player can play a repetitive scale and let the piano or horn player do whatever they like with freedom.  It is not

a criticism, it is a fact.  Classical is written from the ground up where every note counts in how it interacts with all the other harmonic lines in compsition.  Western classical music(lets stick to that for simplicity) uses pretty much every scale in the book and as a composer there would be an infinite ways to sound really horrible whilst one composes multi-voice music.

 

You can jump & scream all you want, jazz has a built in safeguard with the simple scales most jazz artists use, that let them really express themselves, yet it is a very monophonic thing going on.  All the jazz greats from Coltrane on down the line, have worked within that constrain.

 

Jazz is great yes, does jazz have anywhere near the harmonic interaction of classical???  You are joking, right???

 

I should have said, jazz has much less harmony, than classical, now I need to type all these silly replies.

 

Synthesisers were intended to imitate, or synthesise (combine to form a complex product), the sounds of orchestral instruments, what we got with early synthesisers like the Moog, ARP2500 and EMS VCS-3 were poor approximations of those orchestral sounds - so poor as to be practically unrecognisable as the instruments they were trying to imitate - that was a limitation of technology and of the understanding of how sound is made, not a limitation of intention or imagination.

 

If this sounds unbelievable or far-fetched then consider this:

 

- all early organs whether they are pipe, reed, electromechanical or electronic, have stops that imitate natural and orchestral instruments - they don't sound much like the real thing to the average listener, but that's what they are, why they're there and why they have names like "tuba" and "trombone".

- the chamberiline and mellotron copies (records) orchestral sounds directly onto their tapes.

- all electronic keyboards such as those by Casio, Bontempi or Yamaha have buttons that replicate orchestral instruments.

 

And early synthesiser design, and all later developments, were following that same original intent of those organ stops and mellotron tapes - to replicate orchestral sounds - purposely to reduce the need for employing an 80-piece orchestra when recording and performing orchestral accompaniment to popular music.

 

The basic waveforms generators in a synthesiser were chosen because those waveforms are relatively simple to generate, however, the reason why there are three basic shapes (square, triangle and pulse) rather than the more obvious sinewave is because they are very close approximations in harmonic content to the three basic sections of an orchestra, (brass, string and woodwind) - a pure sinewave has no harmonic content and is an unnatural sound. The envelope generator was also designed to be able to replicate the volume envelopes of a natural (orchestral) instruments - the (A) attack of the initial hit, pluck or blow, the (D) decay of that initial hit, pluck or blow, the (S) sustain of the natural resonance of the instrument body or player's breath and finally the (R) release of the note (ADSR). The filters in the synthesiser were also chosen not only to replicate the natural filtering of the basic instrument sound created by the body size and shape (which makes a violin different to a viola or a bassoon different to a clarinet) , but to change with time in mimicry of the natural formant and resonance changing the timbre of the note as it is played-out.

 

Yet, those basic elements were not enough to recreate the rich complexity of real orchestral instruments, the synthesis was incomplete, hence the complexity of syntheisers grew to accomodate those limitations and to get ever closer to the sounds they were attempting to mimic. The large and complex moog on the cover of Switched On Bach is and example of the difference between what Carlos needed to recreate the baroque sounds of Brandenburg Concerto and what "rock musicians" were working with when they used the far smaller and simpler minimoog and VCS-3 back in 1968. [I would posit that Carlos deliberately chose Bach because baroque music fitted the symplistic and mechanical sounds the instrument could create rather than that of the rich complexity of classical and romantic era orchestra of say Beethoven would require...her later forays into Beethoven's repertoire used far more complex and refined synthesisers that closer resembled that era's orchestral sounds]

 

The synthesiser became an instrument in its own right because it failed in it's intended purpose, just as the Mellotron did and the Fender Rhodes too - the unique and instantly recognisable sound of a Rhodes became part of the musician's palette rather than a poor imitaion of concert grand piano it was trying to replicate.

 

That modern synths are used to replace orchestral instruments is a testament to that original design purpose and the subsequent developments of the instrument.

 

HOWEVER.

 

I do agree with the general sentiment of what Pedro is saying here, if not his basic hypothesis or his final conclusion: people are using the synthesiser in its original intended purpose (replication of orchestral sounds) rather than its serendipitous use as an instrument in its own right now, but not because the synth was ever intended to be an instrument in its own right, nor because people are scared of anything new.

This is prog in a new way, like blackfield. I think its still prog but new