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Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
Status: Offline
Points: 877
Posted: February 22 2012 at 13:40
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
So is it really a lack of talent, or just a surpression of talent on the part of the musical mainstream? I agree with you that today's mainstream music industry doesn't promote talent but merely tries to churn out mass produced, dumbed down popular culture for the purpose of making money. But that doesn't diminish the actual talent that is out there, even though it's not widely known. Most of the music on this site is outside of the mainstream, and are on independant labels that, at least to an extent, allow artistic freedom and promote real talent. When I and the others on this site defend extreme artists, we're not promoting "child's level" music but the work of some ridiculously talented artists. If you get past the distortion and harsh vocals, what you will hear is some insanely complex and well composed music that is unique and special. Even the harsh vocals themselves require real talent, because if you're going to use your voice in that way without hurting yourself, you have to learn the method of classical singing, also. It's okay if you don't like that kind of music, because each of us responds to music in a different way. But don't dismiss it as talentless, because that's simply not true.
Hi Ambient Hurricanes,
Yes, I think you and I are getting down to it.
Please do read the quote at the bottom as it pertains to "moments".. ( I do think music is most effective when it brings a message of hope...) Life is comprised of moments. I think the moment this conversation of talent & singers got a bit testy was from a singular moment: The moment I saw the Faith No More video with Mr. Patton. He did his thing of combining a few commercial vocal "stylings" but what I was dumbfounded over was how simple & recycled the music in the song was. This kinda floored me, since this forum is about progressive music. So I needed to ask, what is going on here? What do people see in this? Because there was nothing "progressive" or talent laiden to the singer nor the music in regards to the bands in this forum!(Progressive Music) I try to accept all forms of music and certainly to each his own is reality. I have no argument against bands like Green Day or Motley Crew(or the people who enjoy them), but those bands would never be considered progressive or fodder for conversation here.
So color me confused over that video.
Yeah, we just covered how the music industry is not interesting in promoting talent. My point is certainly not a
generation thing. I love such records as:
Gentle Giant - Free Hand 1975
Eric Johnson - Ah Via Musicom 1992
Glass Hammer - If 2010
I would never compare these artists to each other. Great music can come out at any time. About the rough vocals...who knows? I hated Rush when I first heard Geddy's voice, but then I bought all their records just a few years later.
(@Rush fans - I have been a loyal RUSH supporter since 1980)
"There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities – it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."
or to keep it real simple, I would like to quote Jon Anderson:
"Without hope you can not start the day"
It is a please "rapping" with you kind sir.
DM
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
Status: Offline
Points: 877
Posted: February 22 2012 at 14:03
rogerthat wrote:
, How high can rock singing standards be anyway, technically, if Bob Dylan is considered a great singer?
Hi rogerthat,
I think you captured the essence of what I was getting at about "singers" when you mentioned Bob Dylan.
I don't think anybody should consider Bob Dylan to be a talented singer. He is universally loved as a poet & songwriter.
But not as a singer. He lacks everything that a real singer would have. I guess I made a mistake of trying to have
a discussion based on musical principles, and I ran into fans....I am sure I just pissed off the Bob Dylan crowd now. YES, are my all time fav. band and I will defend them to the death, yet I will never claim that Steve Howe can sing...
Come to think of it some untra-talented musicians that can NOT sing:
Steve Howe
Steve Hackett
My uncle Steve(no kidding)
(most people named Steve, actually...)
Pop artists who were/are massively famous and can not sing
Bob Dylan
Neil Young
Tiny Tim
Stevie Nicks (hmm, another "Steve")
Edited by dennismoore - February 22 2012 at 14:24
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
Posted: February 22 2012 at 16:33
dennismoore wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
So is it really a lack of talent, or just a surpression of talent on the part of the musical mainstream? I agree with you that today's mainstream music industry doesn't promote talent but merely tries to churn out mass produced, dumbed down popular culture for the purpose of making money. But that doesn't diminish the actual talent that is out there, even though it's not widely known. Most of the music on this site is outside of the mainstream, and are on independant labels that, at least to an extent, allow artistic freedom and promote real talent. When I and the others on this site defend extreme artists, we're not promoting "child's level" music but the work of some ridiculously talented artists. If you get past the distortion and harsh vocals, what you will hear is some insanely complex and well composed music that is unique and special. Even the harsh vocals themselves require real talent, because if you're going to use your voice in that way without hurting yourself, you have to learn the method of classical singing, also. It's okay if you don't like that kind of music, because each of us responds to music in a different way. But don't dismiss it as talentless, because that's simply not true.
Hi Ambient Hurricanes,
Yes, I think you and I are getting down to it.
Please do read the quote at the bottom as it pertains to "moments".. ( I do think music is most effective when it brings a message of hope...) Life is comprised of moments. I think the moment this conversation of talent & singers got a bit testy was from a singular moment: The moment I saw the Faith No More video with Mr. Patton. He did his thing of combining a few commercial vocal "stylings" but what I was dumbfounded over was how simple & recycled the music in the song was. This kinda floored me, since this forum is about progressive music. So I needed to ask, what is going on here? What do people see in this? Because there was nothing "progressive" or talent laiden to the singer nor the music in regards to the bands in this forum!(Progressive Music) I try to accept all forms of music and certainly to each his own is reality. I have no argument against bands like Green Day or Motley Crew(or the people who enjoy them), but those bands would never be considered progressive or fodder for conversation here.
So color me confused over that video.
Yeah, we just covered how the music industry is not interesting in promoting talent. My point is certainly not a
generation thing. I love such records as:
Gentle Giant - Free Hand 1975
Eric Johnson - Ah Via Musicom 1992
Glass Hammer - If 2010
I would never compare these artists to each other. Great music can come out at any time. About the rough vocals...who knows? I hated Rush when I first heard Geddy's voice, but then I bought all their records just a few years later.
(@Rush fans - I have been a loyal RUSH supporter since 1980)
"There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities – it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future, or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain."
or to keep it real simple, I would like to quote Jon Anderson:
"Without hope you can not start the day"
It is a please "rapping" with you kind sir.
DM
Err...what are you trying to get across with the "hope" quotes? Not trying to be rude, I just didn't understand exactly what you were trying to say (don't worry, I'm not in any state approaching anger towards you...we're both Rush fans, so it's all good )
I won't comment on the musical value of the Patton song, because when I watched it, I only focused on the vocals and didn't pay any attention to the rest of it . Maybe a better example of unconventional/harsh vocals in prog would be this wonderful maudlin of the Well song:
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
Status: Offline
Points: 877
Posted: February 22 2012 at 18:20
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Err...what are you trying to get across with the "hope" quotes?
Well, fact is I tried to combine two things and wrap everything up here but I didn't quite pull it off. I realized the moment this whole thing got some people's panties in a bunch was when I saw the video. Then I thought of that great quote about life being a series of moments, ok so far? Then I needed to tie in the rest of the stuff about the quote which involves chaos & all that. I had made points in my original post about some music being so violent with screaming, etc.. so as I have preferences in general, about music that is more or less positive; I fielded a very weak attempt to connect that part of the quote to my argument.
Allow me to be the first to condemn this unholy union.
Though I will say I do believe in the power of music and I do believe it can influence in both directions.
But the truth is I really like that quote, it is from a TV series, babylon5.
Hey, didn't RUSH do a song called Hope???
Edited by dennismoore - February 22 2012 at 18:23
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
Status: Offline
Points: 877
Posted: February 22 2012 at 18:30
Snow Dog wrote:
dennismoore wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
So I cannot say that I enjoy Steve Hackett's singing?
Sure you can....
So he can sing!
I will answer that in three parts +
1. Did you listen to that Bob Dylan record I gave you? 2. Your avatar change is actually quite cool. Very snappy picture 3. Are you trying to spam in this thread which I seem to have high-jacked?
+ It is considered singing(by me) as long as you don't sing along while listening, then it would become a "duet" and there are a whole different set of rules for that.
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
Status: Offline
Points: 877
Posted: February 22 2012 at 18:57
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Dude,
What you posted was really amazing, I just listened to it. We need to conference in Rogerthat and find out why he posted that Faith No More stuff... That started this whole mess. We need someone to blame at this point, yes?
I will need to check out that band you posted. That was prog.
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
What you posted was really amazing, I just listened to it. We need to conference in Rogerthat and find out why he posted that Faith No More stuff... That started this whole mess. We need someone to blame at this point, yes?
I will need to check out that band you posted. That was prog.
Never heard any Maudlin of the Well? Great stuff, though the record you listed to, Part the Second, is very different from their previous 3 albums.
Toby Driver's other project is Kayo Dot - a band i find much, much, much more enjoyable.
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
Posted: February 22 2012 at 19:20
dennismoore wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Dude,
What you posted was really amazing, I just listened to it. We need to conference in Rogerthat and find out why he posted that Faith No More stuff... That started this whole mess. We need someone to blame at this point, yes?
I will need to check out that band you posted. That was prog.
I posted it because he covers a variety of styles. I would assume somebody seriously interested in vocals would not be bothered so much by the music IF they are trying to see what the singer can do. Maybe I got that wrong. I don't like Little River Band much, but I am not going to say therefore there's something wrong with the way John Farnham sings. You can sort of extend that to INXS and Michael Hutchence.
Joined: December 25 2011
Location: internet
Status: Offline
Points: 2549
Posted: February 22 2012 at 21:35
dennismoore wrote:
Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
Dude,
What you posted was really amazing, I just listened to it. We need to conference in Rogerthat and find out why he posted that Faith No More stuff... That started this whole mess. We need someone to blame at this point, yes?
I will need to check out that band you posted. That was prog.
First, listen to the rest of Part the Second. It would probably appeal to you the most, because there are no growls. The rest of their stuff falls more under the "post metal" tag. After PtS, listen to Bath, as it has some harsh vocals, but only on a few songs. Then listen to "Leaving Your Body Map" and then "My Fruit Psychobells...A Seed Combustible."
You might be turned off by some of the growls at first, but persevere! The music is amazing and very intricate and complex, and when the heavy moments occur, they only add to the beauty. This is the band that turned me from a growl hater to a growl defender.
Joined: April 19 2011
Location: America
Status: Offline
Points: 877
Posted: February 24 2012 at 10:52
Horizons wrote:
Toby Driver's other project is Kayo Dot - a band i find much, much, much more enjoyable.
Choirs of the Eye > Part the Second.
Thanks Horizons,
I just found a review from here:
"The guitar is of course the main element,... that lead the listener to fear and fright. Once when the music goes silent until now between the guitar and abound with violence.
... and these guys give us moments of peace when they want. But these moments are rare and in general the album is quite heavy and strong,
Yiipeesss! Excuse me I need to go put on an old Elton John record & hide under my bed..Untill I feel safer.
I never aquired the "dark" gene in my genetic code for listening to music. My brother loves Black Sabbath and all that death metal stuff, though... I am not sayin that your recomendation is death metal, mind you...
"Yeah, people are unhappy about that - but you know what, it's still Yes." - Chris Squire
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Ambient Hurricanes wrote:
)
)
. Maybe a better example of unconventional/harsh vocals in prog would be this wonderful maudlin of the Well song:
