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cstack3 
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 Posted: December 30 2011 at 23:27 |
 catfood03 wrote:
My complaint about what I'm hearing in most modern music (prog or otherwise) is more compression these days, less dynamics. I blame this on the burgeoning MP3 format over the past few years. I guess why be expansive with music if the majority of your audience is going to listen to it on "earbuds" on a crowded street anyway?
I yearn to hear something lush and "overproduced" again! 
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Excellent point! I agree completely, I was doing studio work in the mid 1970's when compression became very popular.
Highly compressed MP3 files download faster, screw the music quality.
I steer clear of i-tunes for any serious music, and rely upon CDs. Some of my favorites are the earliest ones vs. digitally re-mastered. When the first CDs were cut from the studio masters, you got all the tape hiss & dynamics that the producers had to work with.
Good enough for Eddie Offord, good enough for me.
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Ambient Hurricanes
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 00:07 |
Warthur wrote:
It's always good to take a holiday from any genre you've been listening to a lot of and see what else is out there. I did for about five years and by the time I came back there was a heap of new releases to catch up on and a bunch of older releases which the community had rediscovered and had become more prominent again. |
Agreed. I think there's a number of people on this fourm who have mentioned taking a "holiday" from prog at one time or another and then coming back even more excited about it. Also, there's plently of original music nowadays; I'm not going to give a list of bands, as I think it's best to investigate personally, but try looking at the subgenres you haven't really explored yet. Prog is an incredibly diverse type of music; it can't really be considered a genre because many of it's various types have almost nothing in common with each other. I'm sure that there are certain sections of progarchives (and prog in general) that you haven't yet explored and that contain something that will peak your musical curiosity. If that doesn't do it for you, then I'd say to follow Warthur's advice. There's lots of other good music out there. And you're right about Bach, btw. I don't know a prog artist who can consistently match him for prolificity, intricacy, and sheer beauty.
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darkshade
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 03:59 |
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Nothing wrong with losing interest in music. Ive lost interest in every genre of music Ive ever liked at one point or another. Most I come back to. I was into prog for over 2 years before I lost interest, then rarely threw anything on; listening to jazz, world music or funk instead. Then 2 years later, I got back into it through a series of new albums that came out, and Ive been back ever since. I was more into the 70s prog during my first run, but when I got back into prog, Ive been exploring mostly new stuff, occasionally going back to the 70s to see what I missed.
I've "come to terms" with my tastes. My big favorite genres all shuffle around and go through waves. Half the time I listen to about 6-7 different genres in one day.
The only thing that may happen one day, is that I lose interest in ALL the music I like, and feel the need to find something truly new.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 05:06 |
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Fickle. I guess I'm just the freak here for never losing my interest.
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 31 2011 at 05:20
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Cimnele
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Joined: December 26 2011
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 05:25 |
TODDLER wrote:
BaldFriede wrote:
I must say I lose interest in prog. It just does not interest me anymore what new albums come out, with the odd exception. Jazz and classical music are much more interesting, in my opinion.. There is so much music to discover which expands my mind more than prog; why, completely exploring the works of Johann Sebastian Bach lone seems to be a task that would take a lifetime but would be much more fulfilling than wasting my time with so-called "new" prog albums which are more or less just an endless repetition of what has already been said.What's more: I hate the way albums are being produced these days; they all sound extremely sterile. Each instrument clearly separated from the other. Some audio freaks may rejoice about that, but that is not what music sounds like when it is being played live. The instruments all mingle then; there are multiple reverberations and fractions of sound, and this is what makes music sound "alive"; so much nicer for my ears.I know many of you will disagree and come up with examples of what I absolutely "have" to hear. And I know equally well that I will listen to it, shrug and say "so what?" |
As I have often stated in the past....this endless repetition you speak of technically has to do with musicians choosing what they feel is the right path for practice and not having a mind of their own to know that it is the wrong one. As part of practices most professional musicians develop someone else's vocabulary to add to their own. John Coltrane would be a good example. The main course of Coltrane's vocabulary is in his improvisation. This is okay within itself if you're Jeff Berlin and you transcribe a Coltrane solo for bass....but it is not very okay in the case of Jon Clark sounding too much like Alan Holdsworth. In Prog the course is taken to imitate formulas, time signatures, and vocals from the past. I find that ridiculous because many of these musicians could find their own voice in prog if they simply focused on different methods of writing.
With bands like the NICE and others from the early prog days....the idea was to experiment with rock music by combining elements from Jazz and Classical music. It was a way to progress with a new sound and style....but years later (even in the 70's) , some bands took the easy way out. There was too much emulation of what others had done and they stood on the shoulders of these people who first created the ideas like copy cats. They didn't need to! Obviously they were schooled musicians who were diverse. Sometimes it was un-intentional.....for example...hearing the style of ELP for a whole of 2 minutes on Curved Air's "Piece of Mind". I could say the same for Classical composers who emulated Johann Sebastian Bach....(and there are many of them)....and you can also sum my little issue up by stating that everything in music has been tried or written before and that it is only a natural and common occurance for one writer to emulate another blah, blah.....but then what happened to prog? Why did that aspect seem more extreme in prog than other serious styles of music? Is it because guitarists like Bob Fripp and Steve Howe laid a foundation and everyone else got lazy and copied it? Back in the 70's Rare Bird's "As Your Mind Flies By" sounded way too much like Emerson. Beggar's Opera and Trace were too much like Emerson. Graham Field was just as outstanding on keyboards as Francis Monkman and so why did Monkman choose to not sound exactly like Emerson? For me that is a mystery. Was it ABC DUNHILL records or Warner Brothers asking Greenslade and Field to attempt the ELP sound or did they simply feel more comfortable emulating him instead of trying something new. Fripp tried something new with LIZARD and obviously others like Pulsar, Harmonium, and Ange had originality with their ideas. So somewhere along the line players in prog decided to emulate more and neglect original creativity. |
Well said.
I've long suspected the current crop of prog musicians are too focused on rudiments and tribute, and on guest starring on albums, instead of writing something good enough to be associated with them, rather than the previous era.
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Dean
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 05:43 |
cstack3 wrote:
catfood03 wrote:
My complaint about what I'm hearing in most modern music (prog or otherwise) is more compression these days, less dynamics. I blame this on the burgeoning MP3 format over the past few years. I guess why be expansive with music if the majority of your audience is going to listen to it on "earbuds" on a crowded street anyway?
I yearn to hear something lush and "overproduced" again!
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Excellent point! I agree completely, I was doing studio work in the mid 1970's when compression became very popular.
Highly compressed MP3 files download faster, screw the music quality. |
Those are two completely different forms of compression - one you can hear and one you can't.
The audio compression of the 1970 is the one that reduces dynamics and makes everything a constant loudness - in the 70s it was used to squeeze more music onto one side of a vinyl disc because it made the grooves a standard width - on CD and mp3 audio compression does not affect how much music you cand squeeze onto a disc or into a file so it is used simply to make everything seem louder and "in your face" all the time.
Data compression used on mp3 does not affect the dynamics of the music and files have to be uncompressed back to normal for the sound to be heard - with mp3 playback this uncompression is done "in real time". If you say you can hear the effects of compression on an mp3 then I will have to take your word for it because I can't unless it is taken to really stupid extremes (which no one ever does because it sounds so bad - bad mp3 compression sounds like the worse distortion you've ever heard).
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What?
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 05:56 |
Losing interest in prog would be like losing interest in sex, good food... Things I have lost interest in: disco, pro wrestling... 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 06:09 |
I have lost interest in many things over the years but never music as such. I listen to more than prog cos otherwise it gets too much. How many time sig changes can your brain take anyway? I listen to Suzi Quatro, Gary Numan, The Sweet, 60s music or 70s, and even Abba (ducks the wine glass) - I am more into nostalgia really; the classics. However, this year (2011) has been a strong year for dynamic prog albums and my interest is certainly not disintegrating.
I think music itself suffers if the music becomes boring to the listener - so its integral to vary the styles. I draw the line though at R n B or Hip Hop  I would rather country or opera.
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 06:12 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Losing interest in prog would be like losing interest in sex, good food... Things I have lost interest in: disco, pro wrestling...
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Hey i used to be into pro wrestling big time! And then suddenly stopped watching as it got fake and dull and now I wouldnt know which wrestler was on top or which story arc is being fed to the masses to get turnstyles turning.
Hey i used to be into disco big time! And then suddenly stopped listening as it got fake and dull and now....
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 06:25 |
AtomicCrimsonRush wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Losing interest in prog would be like losing interest in sex, good food... Things I have lost interest in: disco, pro wrestling...
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Hey i used to be into pro wrestling big time! And then suddenly stopped watching as it got fake and dull and now I wouldnt know which wrestler was on top or which story arc is being fed to the masses to get turnstyles turning.
Hey i used to be into disco big time! And then suddenly stopped listening as it got fake and dull and now.... |
I wasn't really joking about those two things I lost interest in or the things I haven't. I never thought pro wrestling was real when I was into it, but when I was I even bought the magazines at the convenience store. Disco, it was hard to avoid disco back in the day. I never went to a disco though and prog came along and sealed its fate. There was a brief roller skating period... Also, pro wrestling was supplanted by politics.
Edited by Slartibartfast - December 31 2011 at 06:36
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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JS19
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 06:35 |
Snow Dog wrote:
I have no problem with anything |
We all know that's not true 
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Snow Dog
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 06:36 |
JS19 wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
I have no problem with anything |
We all know that's not true |
You got me.
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Moogtron III
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Joined: April 26 2005
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 06:47 |
I can understand Friede and it is normal if you have an eclectic taste, and a hunger to explore a lot of music in depth. I remember a former piano teacher saying he went from metal to progressive rock to jazz to classical music, and he thought that was a normal move for many people. And then you keep your favorites from every genre, but in the end you seek quality instead of the latest in the genre you already explored in depth. In his case, he also became a big Johann Sebastian Bach fan, and when he discovered something new, it was in modern classic music. He was also into people like John Cage. I think it is part of life, change being the heartbeat. One can become nostalgic about it, but you shouldn't try to keep a flame alive artificially. But, there are also a lot of people like me, I'm sure. I myself am not so eclectic in my tastes, a slow mover as it comes to discovering new music, and I have my favorite music which stays the same over many years, discovering sometimes a new favorite. Which is also okay, I'm sure. I was a lover of prog as a kid (my older brothers were into prog), I'm still a lover of prog and I suppose I will always love prog. My taste is more unilateral, which doesn't sound very cool, but I have accepted it. Well, I think I have...
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catfood03
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 06:54 |
Dean wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
catfood03 wrote:
My complaint about what I'm hearing in most modern music (prog or otherwise) is more compression these days, less dynamics. I blame this on the burgeoning MP3 format over the past few years. I guess why be expansive with music if the majority of your audience is going to listen to it on "earbuds" on a crowded street anyway?
I yearn to hear something lush and "overproduced" again!
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Excellent point! I agree completely, I was doing studio work in the mid 1970's when compression became very popular.
Highly compressed MP3 files download faster, screw the music quality. |
Those are two completely different forms of compression - one you can hear and one you can't.
The audio compression of the 1970 is the one that reduces dynamics and makes everything a constant loudness - in the 70s it was used to squeeze more music onto one side of a vinyl disc because it made the grooves a standard width - on CD and mp3 audio compression does not affect how much music you cand squeeze onto a disc or into a file so it is used simply to make everything seem louder and "in your face" all the time.
Data compression used on mp3 does not affect the dynamics of the music and files have to be uncompressed back to normal for the sound to be heard - with mp3 playback this uncompression is done "in real time". If you say you can hear the effects of compression on an mp3 then I will have to take your word for it because I can't unless it is taken to really stupid extremes (which no one ever does because it sounds so bad - bad mp3 compression sounds like the worse distortion you've ever heard).
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Perhaps my terminology might be incorrect on this, but I am referring to the loss of dynamics(?) with mp3 files. I've compared officially-released music tracks from iTunes with their CD counterparts and there usually is a "flatter" sound with the former. This is more so on headphones listening than through speakers. It's not a "night-and-day" difference, but noticeable enough to make me want to stick with CDs as much as I can.
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Snow Dog
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 06:57 |
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Then again...if you expect to to hear a flatter sound you will hear a flatter sound.
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catfood03
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 07:02 |
Oh... and back on topic a bit... To be honest I'm hardly this site's biggest Prog Fan to start. Coming here I only knew of the "heavy-hitters" (Rush, Genesis, Yes). I signed up for the "General Music Discussion" forums and to discover new bands both old and new. My interest in Prog is casual at best, which is probably why I haven't tired of it yet. 
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catfood03
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 07:06 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Then again...if you expect to to hear a flatter sound you will hear a flatter sound. |
true, because I have yet to hear an mp3 prove me wrong
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Snow Dog
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 07:24 |
catfood03 wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
Then again...if you expect to to hear a flatter sound you will hear a flatter sound. |
true, because I have yet to hear an mp3 prove me wrong
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You never will because you don't expect too.
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Dean
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 07:56 |
catfood03 wrote:
Dean wrote:
cstack3 wrote:
catfood03 wrote:
My complaint about what I'm hearing in most modern music (prog or otherwise) is more compression these days, less dynamics. I blame this on the burgeoning MP3 format over the past few years. I guess why be expansive with music if the majority of your audience is going to listen to it on "earbuds" on a crowded street anyway?
I yearn to hear something lush and "overproduced" again!
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Excellent point! I agree completely, I was doing studio work in the mid 1970's when compression became very popular.
Highly compressed MP3 files download faster, screw the music quality. |
Those are two completely different forms of compression - one you can hear and one you can't.
The audio compression of the 1970 is the one that reduces dynamics and makes everything a constant loudness - in the 70s it was used to squeeze more music onto one side of a vinyl disc because it made the grooves a standard width - on CD and mp3 audio compression does not affect how much music you cand squeeze onto a disc or into a file so it is used simply to make everything seem louder and "in your face" all the time.
Data compression used on mp3 does not affect the dynamics of the music and files have to be uncompressed back to normal for the sound to be heard - with mp3 playback this uncompression is done "in real time". If you say you can hear the effects of compression on an mp3 then I will have to take your word for it because I can't unless it is taken to really stupid extremes (which no one ever does because it sounds so bad - bad mp3 compression sounds like the worse distortion you've ever heard).
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Perhaps my terminology might be incorrect on this, but I am referring to the loss of dynamics(?) with mp3 files. I've compared officially-released music tracks from iTunes with their CD counterparts and there usually is a "flatter" sound with the former. This is more so on headphones listening than through speakers. It's not a "night-and-day" difference, but noticeable enough to make me want to stick with CDs as much as I can. |
When I read your initial post I suspected you may have confused the two uses of the word "compression" but could not be 100% sure, however cstack certainly did. I will repeat - mp3 data compression does not affect the dynamics of the sound - a rip from CD converted to mp3 will have the same dynamics as the original. There are three possible explanations as to why you believe you can hear a difference.
1. They are different - the original uncompressed source used to make the mp3 version is not the same as the CD version - here data compression has no effect - you would be able to tell the difference before any mp3 data compression is applied.
2. As Ian suggests, that you can hear a flatter sound is possibly because you expect to hear a flatter sound - a psychological affect of knowing that audio compression does reduce dynamics then your mind "hears" less dynamics in data compression because of the word association with the word "compression".
3. A hitherto unknown effect of the psychoacoustic model used in mp3 data compression is detectable and manifests itself in a flatter sound. I've studied the volume envelopes of several wave files before and after mp3 data compression and have yet to see any variation in volume that would be detectable to the human ear
A real test is to conduct a double blind (ABX) listening test where you don't know which source you are listening to - if you can identify the mp3 version every time (I would allow a couple of mistakes in 100 goes perhaps) then you can be sure you are not affected by any expectation bias.
Personally I suspect option 1 is in effect here - the mp3 files you've heard from iTunes are from different masters to the CD versions you have compared them to
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Snow Dog
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Posted: December 31 2011 at 08:02 |
Dean wrote:
1. They are different - the original uncompressed source used to make the mp3 version is not the same as the CD version - here data compression has no effect - you would be able to tell the difference before any mp3 data compression is applied.
Personally I suspect option 1 is in effect here - the mp3 files you've heard from iTunes are from different masters to the CD versions you have compared them to |
I expect you are right if the difference is really so obvious
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Losing interest in prog
