Video & PC Game Discussion

I'm a little confused. You seem to be questioning the plot, yet you also say you've skipped it.

Anyway, DA:O's setting is certainly derivative. It's hardly high fantasy, though. Much closer to low fantasy, though not quite as cynical.

I would argue that everything you say is good about Skyrim is bad about Skyrim. Characters in Skyrim about as deep as a kiddie pool; combat in Skyrim is never, ever engaging in any way (especially now that I'm leveled up and just mash power attacks with my dual weapons despite putting almost all my points into magicka); and it's really hard to care about your character when you have absolutely no personality and no real involvement in the world.

//EDIT: Also, the combat was the worst part of Jade Empire. Twin swords, mash focus to reduce attack delay, repeat until opponent falls. You can kill every last opponent in the game that way without him ever attacking back, including that optional arena fight that is supposed to be the toughest fight in the game.


Edited by Gamemako - December 30 2011 at 23:23

Alitare wrote: ^ What a bitchy reply, man. Love ya for it, though. Really? There aren't any orcs? Oh well, it's not as if I've been paying attention to what I kill. It's all the same midgets in armor or bandit highwaymen or what-have-you. Did I ever say Skyrim is the epitome of plot in gaming? Hell no. In fact, I haven't even touched my copy of Skyrim in over two weeks. Obviously DA:O's plot is better than Skyrim's because Skyrim has no plot to speak of. It's literally a world built as an excuse to adventure and kill.  But the graphics, gameplay fluidity, character creation system, combat, and world in Skyrim all trump DA by a large margin. There are so many subtle nuances that draw me in that DA doesn't have. There's no sense of exploration for me. It feels like I'm just walking in a straight line forward until I come across some predictable enemy types so I click once and wait, humming a fancy tune, while they all eventually fall to the ground, then I walk forward some more until a cutscene appears where I select responses for my character that have no real bearing on the plot. The decisions you make (So do I keep the nun or not?) seemed so inane and meaningless to me. So far the class progression system seems as bare-bones and unrewarding as hearing a loud, soggy fart in a public restroom. Simple feats and class upgrades that have no real effect on gameplay other than increasing a few inane numbers? Ugh, that's frustratingly archaic. At least with Baldur's Gate II you had some hefty decision making and exploration to contend with. The characters had more engrossing personalities and you had thrice as much control over your character's abilities.  Sure all that generic sh*t bothers me, but it would be minor if DA's combat system were a little more involving. Hell, I feel like the game was designed in 1997 and only finished recently without any changes. And hey, if you ask me I'd rather have no plot at all than a garbage plot. At least I don't even have to deal with obnoxious characters being forced in my face. Every battle (on hard difficulty, of course) is literally me clicking once and watching a few characters perform the same moves time after time after time after time. I've not once come close to dying and I'm not even using tactics - I just run my ass right up to the middle of the nearest cluster of red-circled enemies and wait for them to die. If my health gets low I've got a large supplies of the instant healing items so one press and pow, fully healed in a flash. I haven't felt a single pang of struggle or true excitement. Isn't a game supposed to do that for you at least once in the first couple hours or so? As I said I don't think it's a terrible game, I just had much higher hopes for it. There's no immersion factor. I almost feel as if I'm playing a text-based RPG and staring at the cover to a TOR fantasy novel cover simultaneously, except that most of DA looks pretty murky to me. Skyrim, to me, looks (much) better, plays much more engagingly, has three times as much content, has a lot more options, and gives you a much freer, more exhilarating hold of your character, despite the cheap pocketbook fantasy cliches which are so painfully abundant. Again, I'm no raving Skyrim (or ES) lunatic. I haven't touched my copy in a couple weeks and probably won't for another couple, but even half a minute of combat from Skyrim was more engaging, less limiting, and more viscerally enjoyable than the several hours I've sunk into this. And I'm only comparing Skyrim and DA:O because you did - apparently you thought you were making some grand point. You might be tempted to say to me, in a virulently sardonic undertone, 'well if you don't like the game, why play it? neener neener sneer sarcasm blah'. In pre-emptive response - I probably won't finish it. I wanted to sink my teeth in and give it an honest try. You may also reiterate 'well how can you say you don't like the plot if you aren't reading it wheeper deeper doo dum diddle'. Again - I've read enough of it to know I won't give a quarter of a damn. When your primary goal is as vague as 'vengeance with an underlying fight for the greater good against monsters and demons and dragons' I stop paying attention pretty damn quickly.  But you probably won't read this, anyway.

Luckily for you I read all of it.

I did not compare DA:O to Skyrim.  I compared it to Elder Scrolls (so all five games in the series).  I have yet to play Skyrim so I cannot compare it to that game but I can compare it to Morrowind and Oblivion which are games I believe you like better than DA:O.

DA:O is not as interesting or as fun as Mass Effect.  It's far more enjoyable than Jade Empire though.  I may even say it's better than KoTOR but I've not played that enough to say.

Darkspawn kind of look like Orcs and Goblins in a D&D sense.

Midgets in armour?  Most darkspawn are a similar height to humans.  You do get to kill the occasional dwarf but that's about it.

I've not seen the character creation in Skyrim but the character creation in Morrowind and Oblivion was horrid.  Not once could I create a character that looked like I wanted it.

At least in DA:O (well, with some hair mods admittedly), I could make my characters look a bit more real.  But then most out-of-the-box character generators are limited in my experience.

Skyrim is a new game, so graphics are obviously better.  However, Skyrim doesn't look that amazing either graphically (I've only seen it on XBox).

DA is linear in that respect, I agree.  It's not a sandbox game though.  I personally find sandbox games a bit annoying due to endless travelling around picking up herbs and spices and other crap.  At least in DA a quest usually ends in one place and I don't have to travel from one end of the map to the other five times to solve it.

There's a Nun in DA?  Where?

I think you'll find some things do make a difference on the plot but if you didn't skip all that, you'd know this.   Even speaking to your companions and making choices means different endings.  You even have the choice to kill one of the characters when you first meet him, if you so wish (well he is a bit annoying).

The different Origins also make a difference to the overall plot (only slightly, admittedly).

How come I died plenty of times on normal difficulty and you didn't die once on Hard?  Hmm.

Oh yes, I know why... difficulty was nerfed on XBox and PS3 (don't believe me?  I'm sure Gamemako will back me up here).  I've seen many complain Hard was too easy on consoles compared to the PC version.

What I saw of Skyrim looked pretty murky too actually.   There wasn't much colour going on there.

Read enough of the plot?  I guess you must have been on the DA Wiki page then.  Besides, it's not all about the plot so much.  The plot is not that amazing and I don't think it's meant to be.

That description of the plot sounds like pretty much every single RPG ever made.

I know he meant Leliana but I'd hardly call her a Nun. 

My mate missed Leliana the first time round 'cause he didn't visit the Chantry/Tavern or wherever she was.   Once you've left the village you cannot go back.

Gamemako: difficulty was nerfed on consoles for DA:O, I gather.  Hence why it's that much easier on Hard on a console.

I died a lot on just normal setting and that was even with pausing and setting up my NPCs accordingly.

And yes, just like Mass Effect, it's the Codex entries and conversations that add to the story, rather than the actual main quest.


Edited by James - December 31 2011 at 02:51

Alitare wrote: I didn't say there weren't any decisions, I said that I personally didn't give a damn about any of them. I, as anybody with previous Bioware experience, knows that inter-party dialogue is one of the primary plot-driven draws. In DA:O's case I just don't care about any of the characters, and I do know enough of the plot. Even having skipped 83% of the dialogue I can still easily tell exactly what's going on.There's not much to speak of. I'm not a fantasy person, though. I detest fantasy novels in general, so obviously the game appeals less to me.

OK. To each his own. Given your interests, it is perfectly sensible that you would not be fond of DA:O.


Edited by Gamemako - December 31 2011 at 11:56

Hmm.

Dustin, you mentioned you find the character creation and level-up system to be flawed.  If you level-up as a Mage incorrectly it can affect your character quite a bit.  Some spells are useless with some spells and some are good with others.  It requires a lot of balancing.

I actually did use tactics to make my life a bit easier as I didn't want to micro-manage everything.  It means my NPCs are more affective and die less often too.

I find Ashley Williams just as annoying as Morrigan, yet I like both characters.  I dislike Zevran the most and like Lelianna the best.

Do tell me about the Darkspawn and please let me know more about Flemeth.

Which Origin did you start with anyhow?

I began with the Human Noble as a dual-wielding-specialized Human Warrior, balancing between Cons, Dex, and STR (0-2-1/2-1-0 per two levels in allocation of points). I've gone through the one town defending against the undead, the palace and killing the revenant. The nun-rogue, easy as pie since level seven or so, has been able to unlock any door or chest without any issue on hard difficulty. My party members are Morrigan, Alistair, Lelianna, and myself. I got the assassin but I don't use him.) My mage, all I did with her was level up the heal and ice blast spells - that's all she needs.

Edited by Alitare - December 31 2011 at 13:18

So you enjoyed the cardboard characters in Oblivion who repeated themselves and had faces that looked like orcs and who gave you inane quests to collect lots of herbs just to get into a guild?

I didn't.

DA:O isn't like that.

Lelianna is easy to win over.  Morrigan and Zevran not so much.  At least in my one finished playthrough.

Decisions you make do affect the outcome of the game and how your NPCs like you.  So you might be a bit annoyed later in the game when something you did means one of your NPCs leaves you.  Perhaps not though.  There's still a few characters to get yet (one is optional depending on your actions).


Edited by James - December 31 2011 at 14:09

Edited by Alitare - December 31 2011 at 14:57

You're not getting my point. It's not just one or two minute aspects to DA:O that keep me from loving it. If it were just the poor loots or just the skills/traits sets, or just the uninteresting dialogue, or just the repetitive, practically unchanging combat, or just the restrictive world, or just the plot that offers me absolutely nothing, or just the boring, unimaginative classes - if it were only one or two of these things, coupled with some other deeply gratifying features, they wouldn't be more than specks of sand, but for me it's all of the above. I don't hate the game. It's fine for what it is, but it doesn't excite me or glue me to my seat waiting to see what will happen next.

Edited by Alitare - December 31 2011 at 15:15