Judas Priest for Prog Related!

And here are a few quotes from Allmusic.com's review of Sin After Sin:  

Sin After Sin finds Priest still experimenting with their range, and thus ends up as perhaps their most varied outing. Yet despite the undeniably tremendous peaks here, the overall package doesn't cohere quite as well as on Sad Wings of Destiny, simply because the heavy moments are so recognizable as the metal we know today that the detours stick out as greater interruptions of the album's flow. The proggy ballad "Last Rose of Summer" is the biggest departure here, with florid lyrics and "red blood/white snow" imagery that would be fully at home on any goth rock band's most depressing bedsit dirges. 

Classic opener "Sinner" is packed with driving riffs, sophisticated guitar interplay (including a whammy-bar freakout during a slower middle section), a melody that winds snakily upward, and nifty little production tricks doubtless inspired by Queen. 

Proggy, churchy guitar intro "Let Us Prey" quickly leads into the speed-burner "Call for the Priest," which may just be the earliest building block in the construction of speed metal, and features some of Tipton and Downing's most impressive twin-guitar harmonies yet.

Just to remind you all of what we are debating:

Prog Related definition

No musical genre exists in a vacuum. Not all of the bands that have been a part of the history and development of progressive rock are necessarily progressive rock bands themselves. This is why progarchives has included a genre called prog-related, so we could include all the bands that complete the history of progressive rock, whether or not they were considered full-fledged progressive rock bands themselves.

There are many criteria that the prog-related evaluation team considers when deciding which bands are considered prog-related. Very few bands will meet all of this criteria, but this list will give an idea as to some of the things that help evaluate whether an artists is prog-related or not.

1) Influence on progressive rock - The groundbreaking work of artists like Led Zepplin and David Bowie affected many genres of rock, including at times progressive rock [and Judas Priest affected Metal music, including at times progressive Metal music]. Although both of these artists created rock music in a dizzying array of genres, both contributed to the ongoing history of progressive rock several times within the span of their careers.

2) Location - Progressive rock did not develop at the same time all over the world. It may surprise some people that as late as the mid-70s the US had very few original progressive rock bands that did not sound like exact copies of British bands. Journey was one of the first US bands to present a uniquely American brand of prog-rock before they eventually became a mainstream rock band. We have collaborators from all over the world who tell us which bands helped the progressive rock scene develop in their corner of the globe, even if those bands were like Journey and were known more for being mainstream rock bands [and Judas Priest is most well-known for their much less proggy 80's albums, which should not disqualify them].

3) Members of important progressive rock bands - Although most of the recorded solo output of artists like Greg Lake and David Gilmour falls more in a mainstream rock style, their contributions to progressive rock in their respective bands insures them a place in our prog-related genre.

4) Timeliness - Like many genres, prog-rock has had its ups and downs. In the late 70s and early 80s prog-rock was barely a blip on the radar. During this time artists such as David Bowie and Metallica released albums that captured key elements of the spirit of prog rock and did so while contributing their own original modern elements to the mix.

5) Integral part of the prog-rock scene - Sometimes you just had to be a part of the scene during a certain time period to understand how some bands fit with the prog rock scene of their time. Although Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Wishbone Ash may seem like mere hard rock bands, in their time they stood apart from other hard rockers with their more serious lyrical content and more developed compositions [this too applies to Judas Priest in their early days]. Put simply, in the early 70s every prog-rock record collector usually had full collections of all three of these artists. These three bands were very much part of the prog-rock scene without being total prog-rock bands them selves.

6) Influenced by progressive rock - From the late 60s till about 1976 the progressive tendency was in full effect in almost all genres of music. Once again, as we enter the second decade of the 21st century a melting pot of prog-metal, math-rock, progressive electronics and post-rock influences have once again made a progressive tendency in rock music almost more a norm than a difference. Yet in other periods of musical history receiving influence from progressive rock could really set a band apart and make them worthy of our prog-related category.
Being influenced by progressive rock is hardly the only factor we look at, and in some periods of musical history it is almost meaningless, but still, it is almost a given that most of the artists listed in prog-related were influenced by the development of progressive rock [which I think applies also to Judas Priest in their early days, before they adopted the leather and chains image].

7) Common sense - Nitpicking over the above listed criteria is not necessarily the correct way to evaluate a band for prog-related. Sometimes you just have to use some common sense and look at the big picture.
A very good way to describe prog-related would be to imagine an exhaustive book that covered the history of progressive rock. Would such a book include references to led Zeppelin's 'Stairway to Heaven', David Bowie's 'The Man Who Sold the World' or Queen's 'Bohemian Rhapsody'? Probably so.
- Easy Money


Edited by SouthSideoftheSky - November 03 2011 at 07:48

Horizons wrote: Black Sabbath are here. Let's debate more.

Indeed, let's!

When viewing them from the perspective of full-blown Prog categories, I can understand that people are sceptical. But viewing them from the perspective of Prog Related and the bands that are already in that category, the appropriateness of their inclusion becomes clear. 

Judas Priest have been very influential and Metal music (including Prog Metal) would not be the same without them. It is probably true that their direct influence on a band like Dream Theater is minor, but they had a more direct influence on early Prog Metal bands like Fates Warning, Queensryche and Savatage. I have been listening to Fates Warning recently and the influence of Judas Priest is very obvious to me.

Please consider the suggestion with an open mind and hold up their best and most proggy albums and song to the better and more proggy albums by other similar bands that are already in the Prog Related category.



Edited by SouthSideoftheSky - November 03 2011 at 05:52

I don't see it myself. 

lazland wrote: Lest it be forgot, a concept album does not prog maketh, nor even prog related.

Lest it be forgot, a concept album does not prog maketh, nor even prog related.

rushfan4 wrote: The Admins rejected them for prog-related after the release of Nostradamus.

Greg Prato of Billboard.com reports that JUDAS PRIEST will finally unveil its 16th studio album, "Nostradamus", June 17 via Epic in North America and a day earlier internationally.

A double-disc set that tells the story of the 16th century prophet, Michel de Nostredame (whose name is often "Latinized" as Nostradamus), the release is PRIEST's first-ever concept album, and was recorded throughout 2006 and 2007 at Old Smithy Studio in the U.K.

"Making 'Nostradamus' was a new experience for us in JUDAS PRIEST, insomuch as this was going to be a conceptual writing and recording event," PRIEST singer Rob Halford tells Billboard.com. "His life is well-documented, so for us it was all about taking the significant episodes he went through, and then with the right emotion, create music and lyrics that would convey them."

Bob (Easy Livin') announced the rejection (in the thread linked to in my original post) on April 24th 2008.

Deathrabbit wrote: Pssh, why not. Apparently anything is prog, lol.

The Admins rejected them for prog-related after the release of Nostradamus.  Unfortunately, this is a dead horse that is just being beaten again.

I hereby suggest Judas Priest for inclusion into Prog Related!

I know that this artist has been suggested before and they were evaluated and rejected by the Admin team in April 2008 (see http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=48068&KW=judas+priest), but I think that it is now time to raise the issue again.

- One reason to take it up for discussion again is the release of the band's double concept album Nostradamus that might be the most progressive album Judas Priest ever did (though far from the best!). 

- Also, in the meantime, other bands have been added to Prog Related that might have changed our perception of the nature of the category(?)

Please note that my suggestion is for inclusion into Prog Related and not for a genuine Prog sub-genre. My suggestion can therefore not be dismissed by simply pointing out that the artist in question is not Prog. I agree on that. But I would certainly say that Judas Priest belongs to the family of distinguished Prog Related bands that include Led Zeppelin, Deep Purple, Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Queen, Iron Maiden and Metallica (all of which are now in Prog Related). Surely, Judas Priest was influenced by and/or influenced some of these bands as well as having a strong influence on early Prog Metal bands like Fates Warning, Savatage and Queensryche.

The most relevant albums by Judas Priest for consideration are in my opinion their first four studio albums (Rocka Rolla, Sad Wings Of Destiny, Sin After Sin and Stained Class) plus their first live album (Unleashed In the East) plus their most recent studio album (the conceptual Nostradamus). But some individual tracks from the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s also have some progressive tendencies (one of several examples is the excellent nine minute plus Cathedral Spires from 1997's otherwise weak Jugulator album).

 

Unfortunately, Judas Priest are best known for their simplistic 80’s hits like Breakin’ The Law. But remember that something similar is true of many genuine Prog bands (Genesis’ invisible Touch or Yes’ Owner Of A Lonely Heart are but two familiar examples). I’m certain that had Judas Priest disbanded after their first four albums – just before they adopted their leather and chains image - they would have been on Prog Archives long ago!

 

Personally, I think that the classic Sad Wings Of Destiny album from 1976 is a masterpiece that would sit very well alongside other classics on the Prog Related top 100.

 

Feel free to add considerations speaking for or against this suggestion but please spare us comments like “they suck!” or “they are amazing!” – it is the Prog relatedness that is under evaluation, not the quality of the music (judgments on the latter belongs in reviews once the addition has gone through).

Edited by SouthSideoftheSky - November 03 2011 at 07:28