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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:30
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

 
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

In addition, if aborted foetuses are condemned to eternal damnation, as my church teaches

THAT IS NOT WHAT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES
 
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

I posted it because it adressed the second part of what Dark Elf wrote. You want stats for something that can't be measured. Whether the future extra 3 500 000 000 africans are wanted or unwanted is of little relevance the fact that there won't be food or water for them. There's too many people suffering and starving already, and in Africa more than anywhere else in the world.

CENSORED


You posted in an abortion thread more than once. I'm shocked.


Edited by Equality 7-2521 - November 02 2011 at 15:42
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Henry Plainview View Drop Down
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:33
 
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

You posted in an abortion thread more than once. I'm shocked.

Well I don't know if sniping really counts...And you know I can't resist people complaining about things that a person or organization doesn't actually believe.

And I edited the post Pat quoted because I decided that joke was in fact a bit tasteless.
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Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
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Points: 12423 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:38
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:



"Not exactly stats" is an understatement. I haven't seen any accurate resource model made. I also don't see the metric for measuring "unwanted".


I posted it because it adressed the second part of what Dark Elf wrote. You want stats for something that can't be measured. Whether the future extra 3 500 000 000 africans are wanted or unwanted is of little relevance the fact that there won't be food or water for them. There's too many people suffering and starving already, and in Africa more than anywhere else in the world.


No I don't. It was a rhetorical question. My point was that you shouldn't make statements like that when there's no way to even measure appropriately how unwanted an individual is.

I agree, and wouldn't make such a statement.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:42
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

 
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

You posted in an abortion thread more than once. I'm shocked.

Well I don't know if sniping really counts...And you know I can't resist people complaining about things that a person or organization doesn't actually believe.

And I edited the post Pat quoted because I decided that joke was in fact a bit tasteless.


I disagree, but I have fixed it nonetheless.
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Points: 65616 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:45
Originally posted by TheMasterMofo TheMasterMofo wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:


 Yeah that argument is becoming increasingly stale and ineffective particularly since, presumably, adult women have the "right to life and a right to liberty".   Or do her rights end where a fetus's begin?   See that's where you have a real problem here; it's not just that it's inconsistent, it's illogical.   Let me put it another way--  it'll be a cold day in Hell before I allow anyone to disallow the women in my family from doing what they feel is best with their bodies.   I'm sorry, that's the reality, that's what it comes down to.  If you wanna come to my town and try to change that, be my guest.
So if a conjoined twin kills their twin, is it not murder? After all, they're sharing bodies; one ought to have the right to do what he wants with it.
That is among the more bizarre and desperate arguments I've ever heard, and evidence of the increasing straw-grasping going on generally with this topic.
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 15:51
What about if I go back in time and prevent you from being born. Is that murder? Huh? Huh?
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Points: 19557 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:03
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

What about if I go back in time and prevent you from being born. Is that murder? Huh? Huh?

This is an abortion thread, not one about  Sci Fi.

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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:05
Hey, I think Hawking just said backwards time travel is theoretically possible. So it counts :P
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:11
Originally posted by progkidjoel progkidjoel wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by The Doctor The Doctor wrote:

I'm sure there is scientific research on the subject, but I'd guess quite near the end of the pregnancy.  But as I said, I'm not a doctor.  Just The Doctor.  One thing I can say for certain is that there is no sentience at conception.  And in the early stages, it's pretty much just a formed blob of cells.  


What country are you from, Chester?  Our country (the USA) defends human beings' right to life.  Not a right to sentience.

Then why do plenty of states in America still allow the death penalty?




Ignoring the point that unborn children are innocent in the eyes of the law and not convicted serial killers, I have said many times that I would be fine seeing the death penalty go if abortion went with it.

That said, why is it when someone brings up the death penalty as the US not protecting the right to life, they refrain from criticizing the US for not protecting the criminal's right to liberty when the convicted are locked up for life?  Wink

I should have said our country, the USA, is supposed to defend human beings' right to life (that both abortion and the death penalty exist here may indicate that it does not succeed in this purpose).
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Points: 12423 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:33
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:


You can, in fact, measure resources, but it is very difficult to predict future technology and trends.  


But you can't measure if future children will be wanted or not.
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:34
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:


You can, in fact, measure resources, but it is very difficult to predict future technology and trends.  
 

But you can't measure if future children will be wanted or not.

And neither can you so your claim is ridiculous. That is what I am trying to convey.

Edited by Henry Plainview - November 02 2011 at 16:35
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:38
Again, I don't even know where I stand on this issue, but there are things and there are things. Recently, we had a thread about some idiotic parents who called their children Adolf Hitler. Many people wanted to kill the parents, jail them, send them to Auschwitz on tour, etc etc, and that was painted as brutal child abuse; now we talk about abortion and suddenly everyone supports the killing of unborn beings. Now, I now both cases are very different and one deals with a "real" person and the other one with a fetus, but it's just strange. Even looking weird at a child = abuse; killing a child before it is out of the mother's body = legitimate. 

Again, I might actually be in favor of allowing abortion, if only because I don't believe in the government teling anybody what they can or can't do. I'm just not sure about it. This situation needs more than the ridiculous arguments that some people make here. For some, it would seem that aborting is the most normal and welcome thing in the planet. 
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Points: 12423 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:39
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:


You can, in fact, measure resources, but it is very difficult to predict future technology and trends.  
 

But you can't measure if future children will be wanted or not.

And neither can you so your claim is ridiculous. That is what I am trying to convey.


Its not my claim. This Dark Elf guy wrote that these future kids would be unwanted, and Equality asked for stats to back that statement up. I just that wrote it couldn't be measuered, and that it was irrelevant whether they were wanted or unwanted,
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:41
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Again, I don't even know where I stand on this issue, but there are things and there are things. Recently, we had a thread about some idiotic parents who called their children Adolf Hitler. Many people wanted to kill the parents, jail them, send them to Auschwitz on tour, etc etc, and that was painted as brutal child abuse; now we talk about abortion and suddenly everyone supports the killing of unborn beings. Now, I now both cases are very different and one deals with a "real" person and the other one with a fetus, but it's just strange. Even looking weird at a child = abuse; killing a child before it is out of the mother's body = legitimate. 

Again, I might actually be in favor of allowing abortion, if only because I don't believe in the government teling anybody what they can or can't do. I'm just not sure about it. This situation needs more than the ridiculous arguments that some people make here. For some, it would seem that aborting is the most normal and welcome thing in the planet. 

I love you for this post. Why is it that everybody has such a clear opinion on this. You ought to be conflicted on something so delicate.
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Points: 28427 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:42
Yes.
A woman's body is hers and no one else should have the right to tell her what to do with it.

In the early stages when abortion is performed, the fetus not close to being a human yet. It goes through all the major stages of evolution so at that point it's a lizard or a mouse-like thing, I'm not sure exactly. At that point it's not unique and is totally dispensable IMO. She can make another one whenever, if she wants to.
There should be a legal limit for how late into pregnancy (24 weeks, I think) it is performed but nothing else.


Edited by The Miracle - November 03 2011 at 14:04
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:45
Why 24 weeks? What's wrong with 23 weeks and 6 days? What an arbitrary line to draw. Who shall stand up and draw the line in the sand on what's human and what isn't? Shall it be us?
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:48
^Just as the arbitrary line that says that at 0:00 of the morning of a person's 18th birthday they suddenly become intelligent, mature, civilized, and able to do many things that 1 minute ago they couldn't. 

The law is always arbitrary. 
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:49
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just as the arbitrary line that says that at 0:00 of the morning of a person's 18th birthday they suddenly become intelligent, mature, civilized, and able to do many things that 1 minute ago they couldn't. 

The law is always arbitrary. 

Yea, but the stakes are decidely higher here.
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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:51
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:


You can, in fact, measure resources, but it is very difficult to predict future technology and trends.  
 

But you can't measure if future children will be wanted or not.

And neither can you so your claim is ridiculous. That is what I am trying to convey.


Its not my claim. This Dark Elf guy wrote that these future kids would be unwanted, and Equality asked for stats to back that statement up. I just that wrote it couldn't be measuered, and that it was irrelevant whether they were wanted or unwanted,


You answered a rhetorical question is what you did.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2011 at 16:52
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

^Just as the arbitrary line that says that at 0:00 of the morning of a person's 18th birthday they suddenly become intelligent, mature, civilized, and able to do many things that 1 minute ago they couldn't. 

The law is always arbitrary. 

Yea, but the stakes are decidely higher here.

The law always has to paint all situation with the same brush and color. People are not different under the violent eyes from the law. The law is an arbitrary construct. 
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