Abortion: Legal or Illegal

Atavachron wrote: manofmystery wrote: Atavachron wrote: Of course abortion should be legal, it's unfortunate the question even has to be raised.   BTW, I love it when those who hold personal freedoms to be most dear actively oppose it.   Being allowed to live is kind of essential to personal freedom.  The government allowing someone the right to terminate someone else is an afront to liberty.  You have a right to life and a right to liberty.  Preserving these basic rights are the only two legitimate functions of government. Yeah that argument is becoming increasingly stale and ineffective particularly since, presumably, adult women have the "right to life and a right to liberty".   Or do her rights end where a fetus's begin?   See that's where you have a real problem here; it's not just that it's inconsistent, it's illogical.   Let me put it another way--  it'll be a cold day in Hell before I allow anyone to disallow the women in my family from doing what they feel is best with their bodies.   I'm sorry, that's the reality, that's what it comes down to.  If you wanna come to my town and try to change that, be my guest.

 

Edited by manofmystery - November 02 2011 at 00:37

Keep it legal, safe and rare.

Ideally we'd live in a world where it was only needed in those rare cases when it could be harmful to the mother's health. But we don't live in fantasy land, and while in my heart I want to say "make it illegal in most cases" in my brain I know it will keep happening....you can't legislate morality, and knowing that it might as well be kept safe and done by doctors in their facilities.


Of course keeping the people educated is important, so hopefully it won't be needed.


One thing I've always pondered myself, should it be left up to the doctor ultimately?
I used to think so, but I started to think about: should they be neutral? Should they not be allowed to make such decisions and solely tend to what is presented to them, or as medical experts should they have the final say?

It's funny because the debate itself always boils down to the same argument per side, always, but there are so many questions it raises as you think about it more. Complex and simple.


Edited by JJLehto - November 01 2011 at 23:55

Atavachron wrote: manofmystery wrote: Atavachron wrote: Of course abortion should be legal, it's unfortunate the question even has to be raised.   BTW, I love it when those who hold personal freedoms to be most dear actively oppose it.   Being allowed to live is kind of essential to personal freedom.  The government allowing someone the right to terminate someone else is an afront to liberty.  You have a right to life and a right to liberty.  Preserving these basic rights are the only two legitimate functions of government. Yeah that argument is becoming increasingly stale and ineffective particularly since, presumably, adult women have the "right to life and a right to liberty".   Or do her rights end where a fetus's begin?   See that's where you have a real problem here; it's not just that it's inconsistent, it's illogical.   Let me put it another way--  it'll be a cold day in Hell before I allow anyone to disallow the women in my family from doing what they feel is best with their bodies.   I'm sorry, that's the reality, that's what it comes down to.  If you wanna come to my town and try to change that, be my guest.

The Doctor wrote: Erm, you don't know me well enough to know this Rob, but I was also adopted.  I was one of the lucky ones though, who had grandparents who wanted to adopt me and give me a loving home.  How many children are that lucky?  Really? How many children are going hungry?  How many are ill without adequate healthcare?  How many are homeless?  How many are abused by foster parents (note, I am in no way saying anything about your fostering, but many are not so lucky to get decent people caring for them)?  And you want to increase their numbers by limiting abortion?  My heart breaks for children too, Rob, but not the ones who were aborted, but the ones who are alive and suffering.

The Doctor wrote: Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: TheMasterMofo wrote: The Doctor wrote: So, since everyone is so concerned about fetuses, how about ensuring that EVERY child has proper medical care, proper food, clothing and housing?  Oh, but you don't want to pay for that in the form of taxes, do you Rob?  Or are children only important while they're in the womb? That would be pretty nice, too. I  bet a lot of people would rather pay for that in taxes than pay for some lazy fool to sit around playing XBoX his entire life. Seems a bit diffusional from the issue of abortion, though. It is exactly the issue.  If you only fight to limit abortion, but do not also want to help children that have already been born, then in my view your position becomes one not of protecting children, but simply one of control over women.  You can't preach against abortion and welfare, government funded healthcare for children, school lunches, and so on without being a hypocrite.  Then I would say your interest is not in protecting children, but rather in controlling women.  Is it not enough that our family believes in adopting and fostering children as we are able? Or are we heartless b*****ds who want to control a woman's body?  Four members of my family are alive because their mothers' chose to let them be ADOPTED rather than killed off. Erm, you don't know me well enough to know this Rob, but I was also adopted.  I was one of the lucky ones though, who had grandparents who wanted to adopt me and give me a loving home.  How many children are that lucky?  Really? How many children are going hungry?  How many are ill without adequate healthcare?  How many are homeless?  How many are abused by foster parents (note, I am in no way saying anything about your fostering, but many are not so lucky to get decent people caring for them)?  And you want to increase their numbers by limiting abortion?  My heart breaks for children too, Rob, but not the ones who were aborted, but the ones who are alive and suffering.

You're right.  Children are suffering.  Let's kill them.

These threads never end well.

The Doctor wrote: TheMasterMofo wrote: The Doctor wrote: So, since everyone is so concerned about fetuses, how about ensuring that EVERY child has proper medical care, proper food, clothing and housing?  Oh, but you don't want to pay for that in the form of taxes, do you Rob?  Or are children only important while they're in the womb? That would be pretty nice, too. I  bet a lot of people would rather pay for that in taxes than pay for some lazy fool to sit around playing XBoX his entire life. Seems a bit diffusional from the issue of abortion, though. It is exactly the issue.  If you only fight to limit abortion, but do not also want to help children that have already been born, then in my view your position becomes one not of protecting children, but simply one of control over women.  You can't preach against abortion and welfare, government funded healthcare for children, school lunches, and so on without being a hypocrite.  Then I would say your interest is not in protecting children, but rather in controlling women.

Is it not enough that our family believes in adopting and fostering children as we are able?

Or are we heartless b*****ds who want to control a woman's body?  Four members of my family are alive because their mothers' chose to let them be ADOPTED rather than killed off.


Edited by Epignosis - November 01 2011 at 22:37

Epignosis wrote: The Doctor wrote: So, since everyone is so concerned about fetuses, how about ensuring that EVERY child has proper medical care, proper food, clothing and housing?  Oh, but you don't want to pay for that in the form of taxes, do you Rob?  Or are children only important while they're in the womb? Two things: 1. You've been away a long time, so you don't know what I've gone through this past couple of years. 2. You've been away a long time so you don't exactly know what I actually believe about healthcare or taxes.

Ok.  Correct on both counts.  Didn't mean to single you out.  But read my last post for clarity on my position. 

The Doctor wrote: So, since everyone is so concerned about fetuses, how about ensuring that EVERY child has proper medical care, proper food, clothing and housing?  Oh, but you don't want to pay for that in the form of taxes, do you Rob?  Or are children only important while they're in the womb?

Two things:

1. You've been away a long time, so you don't know what I've gone through this past couple of years.

2. You've been away a long time so you don't exactly know what I actually believe about healthcare or taxes.

So, since everyone is so concerned about fetuses, how about ensuring that EVERY child has proper medical care, proper food, clothing and housing?  Oh, but you don't want to pay for that in the form of taxes, do you Rob?  Or are children only important while they're in the womb?