Emulating Classic Prog Is Not Prog |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 06:38 | |||
As an Indian deeply interested in both Indian and Western music, fusion done right is something that really excites me. Prasanna, the Indian guitarist, made a great album with Victor Wooten called Be The Change. Some of the best I have heard in years. I would also suggest Ilayaraja's How To Name It, a brilliant fusion of Carnatic and Western classical music with nods to jazz/funk. To me, the master of fusion. His film soundtracks are often superlative, but the language and rendering may be too much to handle first up for an unaccustomed listener so would recommend initiation through How To Name It, which is instrumental, barring some vocalised (sans words) sections.
Well, it is a matter of degree. I personally do not find very obvious influences, even if from different bands, very interesting. I think it is very important to disguise your influences since doing so is essentially to find a new context for it. It may sound like nothing more than a sleight of hand when I put it down in words but it makes a hell lot of difference to my listening experience when the influences are well disguised and the final output sounds quite like nothing I've heard before, even if I am able to place its genre. Cliche is probably the right word for what I've described as a problem here. Everything under the sun may have been done one way or the other but there are always different ways to do it and I like those bands who at least attempt to find their own way. I mentioned OK Computer earlier. That is actually an album with a lot of 70s influence but generally used in a refreshingly different way, resulting in a different and fresh experience. I cannot really say that about whatever Flower Kings I've heard, more or less every songwriting choice is exactly the way I would have expected, predictable and derivative to the core. I don't necessarily expect the next Can or Magma when the word progressive is used to describe a band, but stuff like Karnataka (of Rachel Cohen days and not the new album) I cannot honestly say is any more interesting than run of the mill mainstream pop/rock. |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29630 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 07:02 | |||
Just because an artist makes music similar to "classic" prog doesn't make it not prog. Of course I've probably repeated what has already been expressed by others in this thread already, so my opinion is not as good as theirs and not valid even though I may have expressed this opinion differently.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 28 2010 Status: Offline Points: 374 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 07:06 | |||
Cool! I'll be sure to check these out!
I guess this makes sense, but when I listen to the Flower Kings, I don't really hear cliches and can't predict the songwriting all that much. Just sounds good to me (well, except a lot of Flower King's songs are similar to other Flower King's songs...). Usually when I listen to bands, I don't hear much influence unless it's painfully obvious. It just kind of annoys me when people say Big Big Train are Genesis ripoffs (which I don't hear at all) or that (insert any progressive metal band here) are Dream Theater ripoffs. Edited by Nathaniel607 - April 22 2011 at 07:13 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 07:12 | |||
I have heard very little of Big Big Train. It didn't strike me as too much of a Genesis rip off (maybe I simply haven't heard those songs which do evoke Genesis a lot, I don't know) but remember that Marillion are often called Genesis rip offs when Rush and Pink Floyd were arguably more significant influences on their songwriting. I think people tend to call anything with a lot of keyboard arpeggios Genesis ripoffs.
Edited by rogerthat - April 22 2011 at 07:20 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 07:14 | |||
C'mon, that would make any emergent style of music "progressive music"; that would make the first song of any music style "progressive music" and the second song "karaoke". You appear to have ruined you own argument for the sake of a cheap jibe.
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What?
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Padraic
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 16 2006 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31169 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 07:29 | |||
I thought we've been over the whole "progressive" vs. "prog rock" thing many times. Apparently not.
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Bonnek
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 01 2009 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 4515 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 07:32 | |||
I completely agree with Dean here. It appears some people think that "Prog Rock" is the one and only "home" of all innovative and progressive rock music. It's just a style of music and that's it. Lots of innovative rock music is not Prog at all, but listens to multiple names such as indie, new wave, techno, and so on and so on. Just pick up a Wire magazine and you will be struck by the massive amounts of new music there that has nothing ado with Prog. Edited by Bonnek - April 22 2011 at 07:33 |
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 08 2009 Status: Offline Points: 3281 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 08:23 | |||
Dean: Well maybe I did go a bit too far but really I'm just being reactionary against what I see as a deeply entrenched fuddy duddy musical taste here, on a site that should by definition be anything but fuddy duddy.
PS Add Glenn Branca already.
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BrufordFreak
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 25 2008 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 8189 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 08:54 | |||
I think we all love music, we're adventurous listeners in that we love hearing and finding out about music that we had not heard or known of before. I doubt if any participant of this thread--or member of PA--listens to--and has listened to--only "prog." I love music by Telemann and Brahms, Newcleus and early Run-DMC, soul/R&B from the 1971-74, some Dwight Yoakum and Barbra Streisand, try to comprehend Astor Piazzollo and Django Reinhardt, enjoy all periods of Jane Siberry and kd lang, am blown away by Hans Zimmer soundtracks, love to try to keep up with Mickey Hart, John McLaughlin, Bill Bruford and now John Zorn and Tobey Driver, laugh at Cake and Primus, Zappa and Clutch. And I could go on and on and on--as most of us could.
I love music: interesting, emotional, even challenging or "new" (to me) music. I think we all do here at PA. Most of all I think we all love to study, deconstruct, try to compare and contrast, assimilate and accommodate music. Especially with or through others. We're trying to share, as social beings we are, our personal experiences with the psycho-spiritual experience that music, rhythm and sound provide to we who are more sensitive or attuned to it. Maybe we're all wannabe musicologists. Maybe music is our mystical connection to our infinite spirits. "We are spirits in the material world." Maybe we're just addicts. Maybe we're just scared sh*tless of the real world and find escape and outlet of our angst through music. It's all good! |
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: March 21 2008 Location: Tigerstaden Status: Offline Points: 34055 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 09:12 | |||
have you any experience with the post punk/new wave/industrial metal/alternative metal/gothic punk band Killing Joke, they are a constanly changing band, and have some relation with New Zealand as well
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 09:55 | |||
As to Glenn Branca, don't know the chap, but a quick cram using the idiot's guide to everything (Wikipedia) makes me think that perhaps avant garde isn't quite the same as Avant Prog in this instance. However, should you wish the ZART team to look into it, then perhaps an informative and knowledgeable thread in Suggest New Bands And Artists would be something you could consider (already).
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What?
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Andy Webb
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: June 04 2010 Location: Terria Status: Offline Points: 13298 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 10:00 | |||
You obviously have no music theory background. There are thousands of chords.
Edited by andyman1125 - April 22 2011 at 10:01 |
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 10:10 | |||
That is definitely not true, at least not in the Western diatonic tradition. There are thousands of ways to voice chords, depending on the range of the instrument, but even allowing for extended harmonies (which are only really I chords imposed with vii chords or ii chords and so on, you're still drawing from the same set of notes, just at different times. Ok, so you can just stack notes around for the sake of making really obscure chords, but these will not be very musically useful--not in the way out ears prefer at least. Same with micro-tonal music. The best way to be useful in Western music is to make a good melody or delve deep into interesting timbres (re: synthesis and experimenting with various combinations of ethnic instruments). Even if most interesting combinations of chords and progressions have been done already (protip: they have), it's the style in which they're used and the timbres they employ that make it unique. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 10:13 | |||
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What?
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Novak
Forum Newbie Joined: April 22 2011 Location: Swindon Status: Offline Points: 1 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 10:19 | |||
So, if you walked into a pub and saw a band playing Genesis, Yes, Rush, Dream Theater, John Wetton, Avenged Sevenfold songs etc, you would walk out? Much rather find another band covering SEX ON FIRE and BORN TO BE WILD and some Bon Jovi eh? For me, such a band would be a breath of fresh air, but I don't suppose its a situation that I'm ever likely to stuble on.
Whatever happened to putting a record on and saying you like it?
Also, I would personally put COLDPLAY in as a prog' band as their music 'progresses'. Not all of their stuff, but the last two albums deffo' show signs of arrangements that would st alongsdie those of PINK FLOYD, GENESIS, RADIUOHEAD, DREAM THEATER. Prog' rock doesn't have to expand the envelope of what a category contains as far as I'm comcerned. It simply progresses within itself. The tune, the arrangement, whatever. YES is still progressive because that is what the music does. It isn't required that different styles be mashed together to create something 'new' for it to be prog' or anything else. Styles have been combines wholesale by musicians for as long as music has existed. Check out Haydn, Beethoven, Vivaldi. All great proggers!!!
A prog' category is there to simply help a person find music they might like. And the categories are getting stupid. There are about 45 or more 'metal' categories. I bet there are more for prog' though, just to prove it's a more 'serious' music form.
But then, you talk to the people that write this stuff and to them it's just music. Their music. And often they hate being put in a box, whether it's marked PROG or not. And you tell a muso his or her music is irrelevent, then I suggest you better have yer Nike's on or at best be prepared to have the piss taken out of you wholesale. Unless of couse you can prove your credentials with an instrument. And if you can, well, you most likely won't be having that discussion because you will 'KNOW'.
All this remids me of the TUBES song 'I was a Punk before You were a PUNK'. Ah!! The TUBES. Wgat a great progressive band!!! One of the best prog' gigs I ever saw.
"..... I was a prog' before you were a prog!!! You don't beleive me? Then step outside and see me, baby!!!
I was a prog' before you were a prog'. You want some action? I'll put yer ass in traction!!!....."
Cheers, NOVAK
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13310 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 10:31 | |||
I recall when the term "Progressive" was introduced, and it was used to described the music that went beyond the boundaries of its genre, bringing influences from other styles, and therefore, it was said the music had "Progressed" beyond it boundaries. It was not intended to describe a "growth, development or innovation" as the world progressive would suggest. I guess, as many mentioned before, it's an inappropriate term to describe the music.
Ultimately, also as many mentioned before, it's about the music and your personal taste/preferences, so if you like it, who cares what name is given to it, either progressive, regressive or anything else?
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QuestionableScum
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Edmonton Status: Offline Points: 245 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 10:34 | |||
The definition of prog being used in the OP is relatively misguided, because it simply equates prog rock with being progressive and innovative. But the simple fact of being rock band in some way is not the most innovative thing to do, given rock's development and relative dominance of popular music over the last 50-60 years.
The problem emerges if one considers the first two waves of Detroit Techno. There was some extraordinarily innovative music coming out of that scene at the time, but referring to it as progressive or including it on this site would be relatively silly, because what holds prog genres together is less an uncompromising attitude towards innovation, rather than a historical accident. Although I say this without denying that the music was certainly innovative. The genre of progressive rock as a category is a historical accident and thus it really cannot be reduced to being innovative or some other set of criteria, because what falls under the category generally shares certain characteristics. But there are nearly always exceptions. For instance, if rock instrumentation was viewed as central to prog rock, than progressive electronic would be contradicting. If prog is about innovation while then much Prog Metal, bands emulating classic prog, post rock, and neo-prog would contradict the criteria to be used. Thus the only thing that really holds prog rock together is that we use the term to refer to certain things, and we as prog rock fans understand what falls under that category. |
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Andy Webb
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: June 04 2010 Location: Terria Status: Offline Points: 13298 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 10:49 | |||
So then hundreds Variations aside, there are still many more than just 24 chords. Consider, 12 major 12 minor 12 M7 12 m7 12 dom7 12 half dim7 12 dim7 12 M9 12 m9 and I could keep going, and going... But yes, I admit thousands is a bit of an exaggeration for actual chords. But voicing, yes, there are thousands of variations! And I completely agree about the timbre and tone of a progression that makes it unique.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 11:04 | |||
I don't believe this. I think there definitely are modern bands who want to be identified with the prog scene and have often tributed older bands on stage. You don't have to ask me. Read the excerpts from that Wetton interview posted by cstack on the first page of this thread. The man speaks the truth and I really appreciate that he's politically incorrect and candid enough to do so. If one starts to write music predominantly influenced by classic prog rock bands, it's already a sea change in approach from what classic prog was, even if the musician is not consciously trying to write prog as a genre. Watered down, so to speak, for want of a better term.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35748 |
Posted: April 22 2011 at 11:10 | |||
I'm not well-versed in music theory. Here's an interesting article, though, on the issue: http://ezinearticles.com/?How-Many-Chords-Are-There,-Anyway?&id=59841 |
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