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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 22 2011 at 00:03
Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:

Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

But there are different chord progressions, instruments, microtonal scales and a lot more stuff out there. Bands don't need to stick to Western music principles when trying to innovate.

Okay, microtonal scales. Yeah, they exist, but I've never heard them used well. Some eastern stuff with quarter note changes can sound good, but generally, stuff using the 24-note scale just sounds dumb to me. There's an example (for me, at least) of innovation does not equal good. You could take this to the nth degree and use a 252-note scale but it would just sound like a bunch of pretentious w**k.  

I am not sure I understand this, it seems to read as if music outside the Western system is invalid. Have you actually heard music outside the Western music system, with an open minded perspective?  Are you aware that Indian music, for instance, is melodically and rhythmically more intricate than Western music? And are you aware that some artists have been able to blend both schools seamlessly?  So if I understand you correctly and you are dismissive of music outside the Western system, it seems perfectly plausible to me that your threshold of tolerance for more of the same would be high because your willingness to embrace something different is apparently not very high. 


Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:


Yeah, I wasn't saying this. Naked City is incredibly innovative and I've never heard anyone fusing these two genres before that. All I was pointing out is that you were saying "x combined with y combined with z won't sound innovative to me" yet a lot of good musical innovations came from combing things. And usually it's quite subtle. Even Naked City doesn't sound too different from plain old hardcore punk (just with a screeching saxophone as well). And of course new compositions but too a point, it's using the aesthetic of hardcore punk. (doesn't really apply as much to the covers...)

That's a reductive approach.  All combinations of X and Y aren't the same or equally innovative, if at all innovative.  A less out there 'sounding' example of Naked City-like innovation is Shakti.  Their blend of Western and Indian music was unprecedented then and not easily paralleled to date.  But, obviously, something that simply combines very obvious influences from Genesis and Yes is not innovation of a comparable degree at all, if at all it can be considered innovative.   


Edited by rogerthat - April 22 2011 at 00:05
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Points: 6088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 23:36
Understand that there's a difference between originality and creativity.
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Points: 6088 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 23:29
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Gotta say, I kind of expected this would be a newbie who had the Final Ultimate Totally For Serious Now Definition of Prog all figured out.

I'm ever more perplexed now.

We've flogged this horse so much all zebras now walk with a limp.


All of this.
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Points: 3281 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 23:05
Colorofmoney91: You're setting yourself up for a fall saying things like that. Of course something's going to happen but what we won't know what it is until it does. You're like that guy who closed the patent office in the 1890s because everything had been invented.
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Points: 12724 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 20:42
I don't care if the music is innovative, or regressive, or retro, or whatever... I only care if I enjoy it or not. OK, if they use an old formula (or part of an old formula), but they do it well and the music is enjoyable, I don't really care... what's the use of the experimentation and innovation done in the past, if it can't be used again in the future? Also, I do believe the label "progressive" isn't the most apropriate... I like better the original label "art rock", it describes better what I like about prog (though the literal progressive elements within the music I do like too).

It's like Yes, when they released 90125, they did progress their music and put it into the then new era (80's), and there are lot's of prog fans who trashed them for doing that, and just about nobody from the site would say that 90125 is better than Close to the Edge.
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Points: 4160 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 20:02
Originally posted by colorofmoney91 colorofmoney91 wrote:

What, then, would be the next "progressive" movement in music? I can't think of any more twists that modern music could possibly take. It seems like everything has been done.





What? Tell me you're not serious, man.

Calypso with Tuvan throat singing? Synthpop djent? Avantgarde reggaeton? Acid polka?
Percussion, sir!
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Points: 374 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 18:08
Originally posted by yanch yanch wrote:

Originally posted by Lozlan Lozlan wrote:

This is the problem with genre over-specification. What exactly is progressive rock? Since joining PA, I've seen people pull out their hair and gnash their teeth at the inclusion of artists not commonly considered prog (Bjork, anyone?), but who are completely uncompromising innovators. At the end of the day, genre delineation serves two primary purposes. A: it helps people establish musical identities and directs them to similar music in the vein of their current beloveds, and B: it serves as a means of keeping out undesirables. Unfortunately this latter purpose often marginalizes other varieties of music (a la rap, pop etc.) and significantly narrows the perspectives of people who are unwilling to stray outside of established comfort zones. Thus prog has ceased being an actual description of progressively-minded music. Retro prog emulates and pays tribute without ever being detrimental to the progressive label, simply because the age of progressive rock being at the forefront of the popular musical imagination is long since faded. We are all like-minded freaks who pay tribute to a genre of music that is often derided in the music press, a genre that is popularly dismissed, a genre that will probably never again bestride the world like a colossus in 5/4 time. There is still work to be done, of course, but at the end of the evening 'progressive rock' is merely a label. Apply it however you wish, but don't suffer under the misapprehension that genre delineation is somehow monolithic and sacrosanct.

THIS!   Well said.

 Additionally, I'd ask the question-don't we listen to music that makes us happy, or that in some way moves us and makes us want to listen to more of it? That doesn't mean it has to sound exactly like something else, but that it will have characteristics that the listener truly enjoys. For example: I love Gabriel era Genesis. Does that mean I shouldn't like or deride an album like Big Big Trains The Underfall Yard because it sounds a lot like classic era Genesis? NO! It is influenced by that era, but it isn't the same. There are examples like this in all genres and sub-genres. The only thing that should be important is whether or not the listener  enjoys and wants to hear more music that is similar. To paraphrase Rick Pitino (I know-a sports reference!!!!! Shocked ) "The classic prog era isn't walking through that door!" It's passed and we need to find what we enjoy and listen to it.

Not sure I entirely understand this. Are you saying we shouldn't like a genre because it is generally derided? But so is everything except rap and pop! (or are you saying that is how the world thinks of us)

Also, I think you're talking it a bit far. I agree that people should try and expand  their horizons, but not at the expense of hearing beautiful music that isn't entirely original-sounding (I still consider it in actuality original, since the composition is original, like Big Big Train's Far Skies Deep Time).

There's a perfect medium. At one end, lies someone who listens to new music, but it may as well be the same, and at the other end, lies Walter. 
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Points: 3247 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 17:47
Originally posted by Lozlan Lozlan wrote:

This is the problem with genre over-specification. What exactly is progressive rock? Since joining PA, I've seen people pull out their hair and gnash their teeth at the inclusion of artists not commonly considered prog (Bjork, anyone?), but who are completely uncompromising innovators. At the end of the day, genre delineation serves two primary purposes. A: it helps people establish musical identities and directs them to similar music in the vein of their current beloveds, and B: it serves as a means of keeping out undesirables. Unfortunately this latter purpose often marginalizes other varieties of music (a la rap, pop etc.) and significantly narrows the perspectives of people who are unwilling to stray outside of established comfort zones. Thus prog has ceased being an actual description of progressively-minded music. Retro prog emulates and pays tribute without ever being detrimental to the progressive label, simply because the age of progressive rock being at the forefront of the popular musical imagination is long since faded. We are all like-minded freaks who pay tribute to a genre of music that is often derided in the music press, a genre that is popularly dismissed, a genre that will probably never again bestride the world like a colossus in 5/4 time. There is still work to be done, of course, but at the end of the evening 'progressive rock' is merely a label. Apply it however you wish, but don't suffer under the misapprehension that genre delineation is somehow monolithic and sacrosanct.

THIS!   Well said.

 Additionally, I'd ask the question-don't we listen to music that makes us happy, or that in some way moves us and makes us want to listen to more of it? That doesn't mean it has to sound exactly like something else, but that it will have characteristics that the listener truly enjoys. For example: I love Gabriel era Genesis. Does that mean I shouldn't like or deride an album like Big Big Trains The Underfall Yard because it sounds a lot like classic era Genesis? NO! It is influenced by that era, but it isn't the same. There are examples like this in all genres and sub-genres. The only thing that should be important is whether or not the listener  enjoys and wants to hear more music that is similar. To paraphrase Rick Pitino (I know-a sports reference!!!!! Shocked ) "The classic prog era isn't walking through that door!" It's passed and we need to find what we enjoy and listen to it.
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Points: 374 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 13:30
Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

But there are different chord progressions, instruments, microtonal scales and a lot more stuff out there. Bands don't need to stick to Western music principles when trying to innovate.

Okay, microtonal scales. Yeah, they exist, but I've never heard them used well. Some eastern stuff with quarter note changes can sound good, but generally, stuff using the 24-note scale just sounds dumb to me. There's an example (for me, at least) of innovation does not equal good. You could take this to the nth degree and use a 252-note scale but it would just sound like a bunch of pretentious w**k. 

Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

Being 100% original is impossible. What I don't agree with is deliberately copying a formula, changing it slightly and then call the final product "innovative".

Ever heard this little band called Kayo Dot? Not perfectly original, but it's pretty distinct and doesn't sound like sh*t to me.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm saying. The only (fairly big) difference is what I consider "distinct".

Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

I'm pretty sure no one combined these genres before Zorn.


Stab me in the face with a soldering iron if Naked City isn't innovative.

Yeah, I wasn't saying this. Naked City is incredibly innovative and I've never heard anyone fusing these two genres before that. All I was pointing out is that you were saying "x combined with y combined with z won't sound innovative to me" yet a lot of good musical innovations came from combing things. And usually it's quite subtle. Even Naked City doesn't sound too different from plain old hardcore punk (just with a screeching saxophone as well). And of course new compositions but too a point, it's using the aesthetic of hardcore punk. (doesn't really apply as much to the covers...)


Edited by Nathaniel607 - April 21 2011 at 13:41
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Points: 10185 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 13:09
Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:

Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

Of course they don't sound EXACTLY like each other. Neo-prog and retro-prog bands may not copy "The Golden Age Masters" to perfection (though I've heard a lot of these bands - like The Flower Kings - inserting snippets of 70's prog riffs and such in their songs, but the sound is pretty f**king similar and they show a clear lack of creativity and innovation.

There are only so many notes, you know? Only so many chords. 12 Major, 12 Minor, and about 100 variations (but usually, they don't sound too different). You're going to hear similar riffs if you listen. Or maybe it's deliberately quoted. Either way, that's fine.

But there are different chord progressions, instruments, microtonal scales and a lot more stuff out there. Bands don't need to stick to Western music principles when trying to innovate.

Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:

Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

You know what sucks? Old music with "subtle innovations".

It's not old music if it's a completely different composition. It's new music with a style similar to old music.

If you think it's possible to create something truly innovative without using any of the devices I, or you have said, try (to compose it or to find it). So, you're not allowed any previously used note sequence (good luck with that), chord sequences. Your vocals aren't allowed to be similar to anyone else's. It's got to have completely new textures. No previously used arrangement styles. I'd like to hear it.

Well, actually, I wouldn't because it would probably sound like sh*t.

Being 100% original is impossible. What I don't agree with is deliberately copying a formula, changing it slightly and then call the final product "innovative".

Ever heard this little band called Kayo Dot? Not perfectly original, but it's pretty distinct and doesn't sound like sh*t to me.

Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:

Also, I'm judging by your avatar that you're a John Zorn fan. Even he wasn't truly innovative by your standards, as all he did was combine two previously used things - free jazz and hardcore punk.

I'm pretty sure no one combined these genres before Zorn.


Stab me in the face with a soldering iron if Naked City isn't innovative.
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 13:01
I am largely in agreement with the OP.  I only got into prog because it was innovative.  I respect that people eventually start liking the classic prog STYLE and enjoy that in a 'contemporary' band.  But if you're like me and not satisfied with only the sound of the music, you'd run out of patience with that approach, especially given the length of most prog compositions and their more deliberate construction.  Which brings me to blues/jazz. Personally, I enjoy the PERFORMANCE of a blues/jazz track in the live setting because it affords some scope for the musicians to express themselves (in other words, originality or uniqueness) but I really do not find much to interest me in a recently recorded studio blues album (or 'traditional' jazz for that matter).   

As for prog as genre v/s prog as approach, the former simply does not make sense as an idea at any level to me because a rock-based genre necessarily has to have some sound. A sound means boundaries, by implication, and prog cannot have boundaries. It is supposed to evolve, change, 'progress'.  Of course, it's impossible, practically, to run a forum on prog music without some identification of prog characteristics as a genre but I personally only loved and love the approach, not so much the sounds. The same sounds that Genesis used would sound boring to me if the music composition was predictable and stale.  And the problem is not only with quoting music written by Genesis or KC. Some of these bands don't even attempt to create an original context within which to quote the masters, it's all designed to evoke the prog 'flavour'. Flavour, what flavour?

Oh, lastly, Kayo Dot isn't, imo, the best thing since sliced bread yet to me and there's ample RIO/Zeuhl that's hardly all that progressive, my favourite example being the Dun album Eros. 
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Points: 14069 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 12:36
I get the point, but if something sounds prog is prog for me. In the 80s a lot of Genesis fans were resistant against Marillion who were intended as clones. Can you say that they are not prog because they sounded too sinilar to Genesis? Does it mean that neo-prog is not a prog subgenre? 
I don't think that originality is always a must. If so, nobody would be playing blues or jazz today.
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Points: 1601 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 12:33
This is the point I always tried to make to people.  Being progressive vs fulfilling prog cliché's.
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Points: 374 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 12:19
Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

Or maybe something you refuse to believe that exists just because you love that kind of music.

No. Just no. 

Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

Of course they don't sound EXACTLY like each other. Neo-prog and retro-prog bands may not copy "The Golden Age Masters" to perfection (though I've heard a lot of these bands - like The Flower Kings - inserting snippets of 70's prog riffs and such in their songs, but the sound is pretty f**king similar and they show a clear lack of creativity and innovation.

There are only so many notes, you know? Only so many chords. 12 Major, 12 Minor, and about 100 variations (but usually, they don't sound too different). You're going to hear similar riffs if you listen. Or maybe it's deliberately quoted. Either way, that's fine.

Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

A song with the Yes sound, Marillion-like arrangements and Steve Hogarth-ish vocals with "interesting chord structures, riffs, texture" won't sound innovative at all to me. 

That would probably sound quite innovative. Considering that pretty much every basic musical device has been used, the only way to create something truly new is to combine them in interesting ways, with interesting composition. Even Avante-Gard bands are usually using previously done stuff. Chromatic, deliberate dissonance, random notes, strange dynamics. It's all been done before in some caliber. 

Originally posted by Polo Polo wrote:

You know what sucks? Old music with "subtle innovations".

It's not old music if it's a completely different composition. It's new music with a style similar to old music.

If you think it's possible to create something truly innovative without using any of the devices I, or you have said, try (to compose it or to find it). So, you're not allowed any previously used note sequence (good luck with that), chord sequences. Your vocals aren't allowed to be similar to anyone else's. It's got to have completely new textures. No previously used arrangement styles. I'd like to hear it.

Well, actually, I wouldn't because it would probably sound like sh*t. 

Also, I'm judging by your avatar that you're a John Zorn fan. Even he wasn't truly innovative by your standards, as all he did was combine two previously used things - free jazz and hardcore punk.
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Points: 178 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 11:55
Originally posted by Lozlan Lozlan wrote:

This is the problem with genre over-specification ...
the misapprehension that genre delineation is somehow monolithic and sacrosanct.


I think I heard somewhere that  there's a band called "Sacrosanct"
who just happens to sound exactly like Gabriel-era Genesis!

Go figure. Wink
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Points: 536 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 09:24
This is the problem with genre over-specification. What exactly is progressive rock? Since joining PA, I've seen people pull out their hair and gnash their teeth at the inclusion of artists not commonly considered prog (Bjork, anyone?), but who are completely uncompromising innovators. At the end of the day, genre delineation serves two primary purposes. A: it helps people establish musical identities and directs them to similar music in the vein of their current beloveds, and B: it serves as a means of keeping out undesirables. Unfortunately this latter purpose often marginalizes other varieties of music (a la rap, pop etc.) and significantly narrows the perspectives of people who are unwilling to stray outside of established comfort zones. Thus prog has ceased being an actual description of progressively-minded music. Retro prog emulates and pays tribute without ever being detrimental to the progressive label, simply because the age of progressive rock being at the forefront of the popular musical imagination is long since faded. We are all like-minded freaks who pay tribute to a genre of music that is often derided in the music press, a genre that is popularly dismissed, a genre that will probably never again bestride the world like a colossus in 5/4 time. There is still work to be done, of course, but at the end of the evening 'progressive rock' is merely a label. Apply it however you wish, but don't suffer under the misapprehension that genre delineation is somehow monolithic and sacrosanct.
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Points: 10185 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 08:59
Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:

I don't get it. This just seems stupid to me. You guys must be hearing something I'm not.
 
Or maybe something you refuse to believe that exists just because you love that kind of music.

Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:

Everyone on this website seems to think everyone's copying off of someone. Just because it has similar texture or instruments or whatever. Yeah, it may use similar instrumentation, or structures, but it doesn't matter. Because the composition is different. Just cause they have a similar style, doesn't mean they are THE SAME. The same can be said about any genre - jazz, for example, has a pretty set-in-stone set of instruments that can be used, but there's still a lot of groups that manage to sound different from each other.

Of course they don't sound EXACTLY like each other. Neo-prog and retro-prog bands may not copy "The Golden Age Masters" to perfection (though I've heard a lot of these bands - like The Flower Kings - inserting snippets of 70's prog riffs and such in their songs, but the sound is pretty f**king similar and they show a clear lack of creativity and innovation.

Originally posted by Nathaniel607 Nathaniel607 wrote:

I just don't get this argument... it just seems that people are trying to invent more ways to praise "The Golden Age Masters" even more than they already are.   

People seem to need everything to sound completely innovative, but forget that there can be more subtle innovations. Interesting chord structures, riffs, texture etcetera. Of course, it's nice to here something that sounds completely new, and that can be found as well.

A song with the Yes sound, Marillion-like arrangements and Steve Hogarth-ish vocals with "interesting chord structures, riffs, texture" won't sound innovative at all to me. 


You know what sucks? Old music with "subtle innovations".
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Points: 34055 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 08:52
@ Textbook   Ying Yang
 
so what doo you actualy think of the trancition of the aucustic and more folksy, dark and serching Genesis (Tresspass - Nurcery Cryme - Foxtrot) classic prog - including some pop, but still use of twelve stringguitar  and mellotron (Selling England by the Poumd - the Lamb Lies Down on Broadway) the trancition albums, more heavy guitar useage, influences form more oriental sounds/chord sequnces, more melodic/melancholic (A Tirck to Tail - Wind and Wuthering - And Then They Were Three) start to use Polysynth, pushing newer drum loop technology, lee to no at aucustic instruments, zero mellotron, more minimalistic (Duke -  Abacab - Genesis - invicible Touch).
 
 
is it becous the last four albums lack aucustic folk passages and dark passages, makes them less classic prog,  but to me Genesis were still progressive in style, by daring to use newer more futuristic instruments and recording technics (like Headless guitars, samplers, synthesisers/ARP)  80s gensis is very futuristic and minimalistic (Mama - Home by the Sea/second Home by the sea, almoust industrial)
 
 
Ying Yang


Edited by aginor - April 21 2011 at 13:09
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Points: 4091 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 07:59
The formula for great prog is simple---amazing musicians with big egos who are students of great musical influences which are not rock influences. So the more you have guys growing up listening to prog and making that their main influence the weaker the music. This is certainly true of Yes --the best Yes is 5 strong musicians---the more you move away from that templet the weaker the group. Allowing fan boys in the band always made second rate music. The key is the line-up. So I agree with Textook---when people tell me to listen to so and so because they "sound just like Yes" ---I'm like--NO they don't.
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Points: 374 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2011 at 07:42
I don't get it. This just seems stupid to me. You guys must be hearing something I'm not. 

Everyone on this website seems to think everyone's copying off of someone. Just because it has similar texture or instruments or whatever. Yeah, it may use similar instrumentation, or structures, but it doesn't matter. Because the composition is different. Just cause they have a similar style, doesn't mean they are THE SAME. The same can be said about any genre - jazz, for example, has a pretty set-in-stone set of instruments that can be used, but there's still a lot of groups that manage to sound different from each other. 

I just don't get this argument... it just seems that people are trying to invent more ways to praise "The Golden Age Masters" even more than they already are.   

People seem to need everything to sound completely innovative, but forget that there can be more subtle innovations. Interesting chord structures, riffs, texture etcetera. Of course, it's nice to here something that sounds completely new, and that can be found as well.
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