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Topic ClosedNew decade, end of the CD?

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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 07:28
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

It's not a matter of voltage, it's a matter of power supply in each device.
Is there another way? Confused
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 08:23

So let me get this straight...the difference between a pressed CD and a computer burned CD-R from wav is that the ear tires more quickly due to errors in the coding???

If this were true, there should be a way to take a CD and CD-R burned from ripped wavs, and compare the data side by side. (Dean already alluded to this).
 
If the data is the same nothing matters until it's converted back to an analog sound. Am I missing something?
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 08:45
Reading the last few pages of this topic have been highly informative and fascinating, and convinced me of one thing for sure:

I will never be an audiophile. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 09:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 10:00
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

So let me get this straight...the difference between a pressed CD and a computer burned CD-R from wav is that the ear tires more quickly due to errors in the coding???


If this were true, there should be a way to take a CD and CD-R burned from ripped wavs, and compare the data side by side. (Dean already alluded to this).

 

If the data is the same nothing matters until it's converted back to an analog sound. Am I missing something?


No you're confusing two things. i was talking about the comparison between an Imod (Ipod) playing wav files and a home CD setup.

Besides that, i was talking about differences between original CDs
& computer-burned CDs.

The problem is that very very few people have ever heard a good system.
Even the audiophiles, at least 95% of them have bad system and it's not at all a matter of price.

All audiophiles i've met who came at home to buy something were just disgusted by listening my system...they became very pale..."yes it works very good..." and came back home understanding that their system was not good at all.

I had the chance to meet a very big 35 years-of-passion audiophile who learned me how to make a system work.

So people don't believe that having a great sound is possible...
ordinary all-made systems, computers, all that sound crap and people
don't believe that anything else exists.

That's why people have such a hard time believing that a cable may sound different from another...

When i met Alucard and mader him listen my portable system, he said
"he never thought one could get such a sound in portable"
and that's really nothing compared to my home setup which pushes walls!!

My father-in- law don't even want to listen to the last upgrades on my system cause he's too disgusted when he come back home, listening to his (decent) own setup!

But the portable is transparent enough (imagine the big setup) to hear the difference between the steel stock cable and the cooper one. I'm ready to meet anyone in Paris to prove him by listening of my portable.





Edited by oliverstoned - April 07 2011 at 10:02
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 10:16
I'm talking about "Original" CDs vs computer burned ones also.
 
All of those system choices you're making are about amplifying and shaping an analog signal.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 10:39
Oliver, the problem is that you're essentially telling us:

2 + 2 = 5

We're trying to explain to you that this is not possible. You respond by telling us that if we only came to your place and checked out your formula in more detail, we would abandon our 2+2=4 theory. We in turn respond by saying that 2+2=5 cannot be true no matter what additional information you present. At some point you have a flaw in your reasoning.


Another good analogy (this time not involving concrete facts) would be astrology. I don't believe that astrology works. If you said to me "Here's a 1000 page book about astrology ... read that if you're not convinced" I would politely refuse. I know enough about the principles of astrology to form an opinion about its efficacy - learning more about its rules and history won't change that, since it all builds on the premises which I'm convinced are flawed. It's for a similar reason that I would not visit you to listen to your system - I'm sure it would sound great, but it could not convince me of your notion that the bit-perfect copies are somehow different.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 11:53
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

So let me get this straight...the difference between a pressed CD and a computer burned CD-R from wav is that the ear tires more quickly due to errors in the coding???


If this were true, there should be a way to take a CD and CD-R burned from ripped wavs, and compare the data side by side. (Dean already alluded to this).

 

If the data is the same nothing matters until it's converted back to an analog sound. Am I missing something?


No you're confusing two things. i was talking about the comparison between an Imod (Ipod) playing wav files and a home CD setup.

Besides that, i was talking about differences between original CDs
& computer-burned CDs.

The problem is that very very few people have ever heard a good system.
...etc



But none of what you go on to say explains how there can possibly be a difference between the CDs.  It can be verified that a copy of a CD is bit perfect with the original.  A CD is just a source of digital data.  In principle it could be replaced with a source of the same data - a hard drive, a solid state drive, etc. - and there should be no difference.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 12:22
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Why?

Too much stress involved in worrying about every detail of your music. I already get stressed out enough over vinyl because so much can change the quality of sound you get from it. I just like listening to music and enjoying it. LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 12:32

Vinyl, as an analog medium very much adds a color to the music. With the advent of digital, we've added something completely different to the mix.

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 13:42
2 + 2 =5

like when you think that you can know the sonic qualities of a given device by measurments. Measurments don't tell much, for example a tube amp has poor measures compared to a solid state but in true life, the result is that a 30W tube amp makes more music than a 70 W solidstate.

Cables works that you like it or not, i can prove it with my
portable system. anyway indoor we're in a more and more wave's
polluted environments and so the best a cable is shielded against
that, the purest the signal is.

But most off all, it really works. I won't loose my money and my time
to live with monstruous and overpriced power cables just for the pleasure of loosing my money. It's a huge turbo for my system.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 14:08

Gah! What we are saying has nothing to do with measurements. The data on a CD or a CDR is identical - the article you linked to said that - a copy of a copy of a copy is identical every time. There is nothing esoteric or empiric in that - it is a basic fact of life - a digital copy does not degrade at all therefore there is no difference between the three sources you "compared".

I honestly do not care how much your system costs - an Audiophile system need not involve expense anyway - ironically the simpler the system, the fewer the components, the clearer the layout the more transparent it is going to be - that's a bankable fact. But if you claim that changing a component that is not in the signal path is going to have a major contribution to the sound then I'm going to be highly sceptical and very suspicious of those claims.
 
Let's bring a bit of perspective into this and try and bring a little realism into what these "measurements" actually mean. Jitter is a known and proven source of noise - I gave the mathematical engineering formula for that, then explained how that has been "designed-out" of every playback transport made today by the use of RAM buffering (ie cache) - jitter is measured in parts per million (ppm) and typically it is 20 parts per million on a clock generator running at many megahertz, this (if it were still in the playback signal path) would equate so something like -120dB ... that "measurement" is the equivalent to hearing a pin drop while standing next to a jet engine on full thrust. Sounds unbelievable doesn't it, but that's the reality. Now even with such an unbelievable sonic difference between the signal and the jitter-created noise engineers and designers decided to eliminate that from the system - so whatever remains, whatever it is you can hear (if it exists - and the evidence says it does not), is actually well below the threshold of hearing.
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Snow Dog View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 14:18
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Gah! 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 15:41
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Gah! What we are saying has nothing to do with measurements. The data on a CD or a CDR is identical - the article you linked to said that - a copy of a copy of a copy is identical every time. There is nothing esoteric or empiric in that - it is a basic fact of life - a digital copy does not degrade at all therefore there is no difference between the three sources you "compared".

I honestly do not care how much your system costs - an Audiophile system need not involve expense anyway - ironically the simpler the system, the fewer the components, the clearer the layout the more transparent it is going to be - that's a bankable fact. But if you claim that changing a component that is not in the signal path is going to have a major contribution to the sound then I'm going to be highly sceptical and very suspicious of those claims.
 
Let's bring a bit of perspective into this and try and bring a little realism into what these "measurements" actually mean. Jitter is a known and proven source of noise - I gave the mathematical engineering formula for that, then explained how that has been "designed-out" of every playback transport made today by the use of RAM buffering (ie cache) - jitter is measured in parts per million (ppm) and typically it is 20 parts per million on a clock generator running at many megahertz, this (if it were still in the playback signal path) would equate so something like -120dB ... that "measurement" is the equivalent to hearing a pin drop while standing next to a jet engine on full thrust. Sounds unbelievable doesn't it, but that's the reality. Now even with such an unbelievable sonic difference between the signal and the jitter-created noise engineers and designers decided to eliminate that from the system - so whatever remains, whatever it is you can hear (if it exists - and the evidence says it does not), is actually well below the threshold of hearing.
 
Since the above is a copy of the original....it still reads the same...it still means the same....as the original. I wonder if I read it on another computer screen if it will mean something different...I will forward it to my home computer and see tonight if it is different, than the original.
 
I hope so...that would be fun!!
LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 15:44
^ You can also simply press F5 to reload your browser window, and you'll receive a new copy of the thread content.Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 15:48
^ Yes I can...but a new copy of what?? Hmm...that seems to be the question Geek
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 15:57
A new copy of the thread content stored in the PA forum database. Any web page is essentially a HTML document copied from a server to your computer (browser) - a digital copy.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 16:01
^ except that this is an .asp page so is not a verbatim copy of what is on the server database Wink
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 16:08
I think it's a little warmer message myself, a little better definition.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Dean View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 07 2011 at 17:32
Okay - final post on this subject (unless OIiver has some other explanation he wants to relate):
 
I ripped a CDR burnt in the USA by Amazon CreateSpace to .wav files using iTunes, then burn the files back onto a CDR in the UK using an Acer laptop and ripped that back again using iTunes to a new set of .wav files.
 
Using HexCmp I compared the two sets of .wav files in binary side by side, obviously I cannot show the entire 430Mbyte comparison, but here is a random sample of one track from both rips:
 
 
...and I can assure you that every byte in every track matched in both copies - they were, as everyone here has been saying they would be, absolutely identical.
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