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AtomicCrimsonRush 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 02 2008
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 14258
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 Posted: March 23 2011 at 21:42 |
 Proletariat wrote:
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
clarke2001 wrote:
I would rather like to see PA database expanded to include certain artists:
1.) Prog-psych-hard rock-jam bands of early 70's ('proto' after 'proto prog' period)
2.) Avant-pop complex artists of new wave/no-wave period
3.) World fusion
4.) Some electronica (IDM in Warp Records style and similar granular textures)
5.) some classical Heavy Metal which borrows from classical prog - multi-part long compositions, bass solos etc. (Helloween, even Manowar, but not Running Wild)
6.) perhaps neo-classical gothic music
7.) prog-related needs EXPANSION (there's a good reason why - I'll elaborate why if anyone insists)
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Great post!
Won't hesitate the lure of dropping some comments of the cases you mentioned:
Case 1; I guess they kind of continued the musical style of 1965-1970's, and I would not mind studying interests if these early 70's bands could be verified from prog related scope, being part of the "proto prog" movement, but not leaving completelly those paths, where the most experimental and artistically vivid rock musicians of 1970's did. Musically I believe these should often interest listeners of 60's music.
About types 2-4 and 6, I would be interested to hear more about. I have some records of case type 3 spinning on my players.
Personally not so interested that I could credibly comment 5, but on...
case 7, I agree with you.
I think this is mostly due my personal insight to the vague, dramatic, and difficultly defined concept of term "proggressive rock".
I personally consider many pre-1969 records as full progressive music (the first Floyd records for example). These are most often psychedelic & folk styled records, not "symphonic prog". For me the artistic and impressionistic approach implemented to the tonal expression of rock music, expanding it away from non-expressive commercial rock, this is something assicating with the term discussed. |
I strongly agree with this line of thinking. Also I am worried that if we begin deleting bands many of my favorite bands that many on this site do not seem to see the value of will be deleted. Not only this but I think that the old line of "there is no if X then Y on this site" shoud be removed. After all this is how genres traditionally have been defined and have evolved in the world of music journalism. Upon suggesting some "different" bands to Math-Rock I was confronted by those on the genre team who were trapped in their own line of thinking and would not accept the bands even though the world of Math-Rock outside of PA had labeled them such. The fact is that these bands are obscure and will not be hurting the sites credibility and they are all proggy and are similar in style to many bands on the site. However the previous bands were added by previous genre teams who held different viewpoints than the current teams when the individuals changed so did the databases standards of inclusion no matter how well worded the genre definitions are this is unavoidable. To not add bands similar to those previously added seems hipocritical and how is a simple forum member to argue a bands case without comparisons? |
Interesting posts (all really), and it all comes down to personal preference and especially experience. As a 'band adder' (I almost wrote Black Adder) the choice of who to add comes from the team and if one does not agree, the band is not added. It has to be that way or we will be adding every suggestion that appeals to the prog pallette of the team members. Yes we have to have an if X =Y checklist or we have nothing to go on, just gut reaction? There have to be guidelines.
We can throw bands to other teams to evaluate and usually they find their way in some niche genre. if not, they perhaps were not prog enough. I have issues with some bands on PA but I can respect they appealed to the prog pallette of the members and have no argument with spcific members for adding, it simply does not make sense, music is subjective so i have to keep the open mind of a saint. Or ignore the bad altogether. Case in point. Some want to add Nick Drake. I can understand it. here are elements of folk prog. But as I am no expert in the genre i can not comment further. If he is rejected I have no qualm with that.
The site does not need to have bands removed. That is a disrespectful action - to those who were here in the early days whpo evaluated and agreed these bands deserve to be here - to remove the bands would be disrespectful to the hard work and the reviews. It simply cant happen.It needs to have bands added however that are still awaiting inclusion - they are prog but the teams cant make up their minds. It takes time of course but in the meantime band after band gets included.
Alternative is that the bands can be re-evaluated that ARE here but are questionable. They stay here but in a different genre, maybe not a full prog subgenre. Case in point, I was looking for a prog metal band (MMA listed) and found it here in Jazz Fusion! I don’t get that. I guess theres a reason (Visual Cliff) are in both genres. But they are more metal these days. Listen to latest albums. But it is not my place to question the original genre, but I don’t have to agree either.
I think the site is a great prog resource. Overall it may not be perfect but it is better than anything else online. It is the imperfections that make it such a great resource. It is a site for fans by fans – therefore a trustworthy resource. It doesn’t need to be improved.
Edited by AtomicCrimsonRush - March 23 2011 at 21:45
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:43 |
^ fairy snuff.
The "reforming PA database" is specifically about hte database - which is the artists discographies and the accompanying reviews - nothing else is associated with the database because that is what the database is. Interviews, blogs and articles are not part of the PA database.
I'd never say "I'm an admin and I say shut up" btw - people are free to ramble all they want- just open a new thread for a new topic and ramble away to your heart's content.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:37 |
Dean wrote:
Proletariat wrote:
Shouldn't Damo be the one to decide if this belongs in his thread? I understand that perhaps discussion of forum reforms may not belong here but I think discussion of adding interviews to the database certainly applies? |
Keishiro started the thread, he doesn't own it. Things may work like that on other forum, but not here - once a thread opened it is everybody's thread. We (Mods) don't actively keep threads on topic, but in cases such as these tangential discussions (such as this for example) are not helpful.
The "adding interviews to the database" was my suggestion - my call I think  |
I had not seen that it was your idea, I simply do not see how this is a tangent at all, the thread specifically is aimed at reforming PA by majority opinion. Moshkito's opinion (no matter how long winded) should be heard, and I think he had some good points. (albiet he had some bad ones as well. Sometimes its hard to tell where an admin is simply saying "dude your rambling" and where an admin is saying "Im and admin and I say shut up"
-which is a long way of saying I think I must have missunderstood you
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:17 |
moshkito wrote:
And yes, what PA needs is a Gonzo, and a few more writers that shake up the pipes! |
That's the last thing the PA needs 
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:13 |
Proletariat wrote:
Shouldn't Damo be the one to decide if this belongs in his thread? I understand that perhaps discussion of forum reforms may not belong here but I think discussion of adding interviews to the database certainly applies? |
Keishiro started the thread, he doesn't own it. Things may work like that on other forum, but not here - once a thread opened it is everybody's thread. We (Mods) don't actively keep threads on topic, but in cases such as these tangential discussions (such as this for example) are not helpful.
The "adding interviews to the database" was my suggestion - my call I think
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 20:08 |
Proletariat wrote:
^^^^
oh and as to the millions of versions of a song in the discography I think its rediculous especially when some lesser known bands do not yet have their full discography included and when those millions of versions go unreviewed. |
If you know something is missing then add it.  Anyone can add albums, singles and DVDs to the discography section of the database. We don't list millions of versions of song unless the artist has released that song on several different albums. If the same album has been releases several times then we list it once and once only.
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:42 |
^^^^
oh and as to the millions of versions of a song in the discography I think its rediculous especially when some lesser known bands do not yet have their full discography included and when those millions of versions go unreviewed.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:39 |
Dean wrote:
moshkito wrote:
And the music is not allowed to die ... regardless of the God or nature out there!
DamoXt7942 wrote:
... I'm much concerned with the past, the present, and the future of Progarchives ... the way of artist evaluation and inclusion, the bulky database currently expanding day after day (including some "problematic" inclusion cases in the distant past PA foundered with confusing), and democratic manner in future.  ... |
I have, in the past made quite a few requests to that effect.
I agree with some of the things that Dean and others, have said ... but I also think that a strict repository for everything from junk to gold is a bit of a problem and pretty soon the real estate is going to be acquired by someone else that has better ideas of what to do with all that space ... and junk!
The best example is the list of "unreviewed albums" where the listing for some is crazy, repetitive and put together by someone that did not look at the material ... when it is asking for reviews for singles and in some cases we are talking 5 or 6 reviews that can be done within the album context ... maybe even "linking" that single to the album would make a lot better sense than adding another review for 25 or 6 to 4 ... that is insane ... and a serious time waster and space waster. Pretty soon we should review all three versions of "Light My Fire" ... the LP version, the bootleg version and of course ... the 2 minute AM version of the song? ... give it a break ... !!! Stop the foolishness! |
No. We list the full official discography of every group listed. If they recorded and released it we list it. No ifs, buts or maybes. We do not list bootlegs - they are not official releases and will not be listed here. If you don't want to write a review for teh 24th version of Light My Fire then don't write a review for it - be your own editor.
moshkito wrote:
My main concern for a little "cleaning" is NOT to delete groups, or artists, but I think that IF we clean up the definition and its sub-divisions BY OURSELVES, not some outside nobody's opinion ... SINCE we HAVE the biggest and the best list of ALL, and therefore are way more qualified to make an opinion and judgement on the issue. But there are some "reviews" that really do not fit in a "review" area ... but they are fairly good to be on a thread about that group or such ... so the database could have a thread tied to that group ... for example. |
No. Anyone can write a review and have it listed - good, bad or average it makes no difference - everyone is equal regardless of their skills in writing or music appreciation. If you want sanitised, edited reviews by jaded hacks go elsewhere. If you want to know what real people really feel about an album, here we are.
moshkito wrote:
The other part, is ... the Forums. I like them. But there are a lot of things in the forums that probably could get weaned and probably killed and simplified. Also the sending of messages to other groups is a hassle, because you just about will never know where your message went if it was in the wrong group to begin with ... and it is easiest to have an all open thread and from there the admins send everything forth to the proper areas. This would affect the newbies more than us ... since we know where to go, but I have to say that at least 15 to 20 threads I have not bothered with and that I have lost more topics and threads than you can imagine. Not to mention that the Search tool is not user friendly at all and has some requests and information that 99% of us would never know how to use! |
The forum is the forum - debate reforming that elsewhere, not in this thread - this is about the PA database. We don't need tangential off topic discussions in this thread.
moshkito wrote:
The interviews. Too much of that stuff is LOST. All of these need to be locked and hooked up to the artist information ... PERIOD. With one problem ... a lot of the artist information is NOT including the interview information ... either the person writing it never saw it, or they did not know how to work with what was said about the music through the artist's words. Or the interview came later, but this is where the person in charge of that area/group, should check to make sure the information is used and updated. |
Interviews are part of the forum, no the PA database - the database is an archive of discographies and reviews, it is not a Prog ezine. Perhaps Interviews could be part of the database - it is something to discuss, but not in this thread.
moshkito wrote:
My view is ... yes we maybe reviewers, but we need to commit to the ART and the ARTIST ... not our imaginary definitions ... and the choices on this matter need to be done according to that ... not someone's knowledge of "neo-prog", which slants the reviews and the group/artist information into an area that separates it from the art and the work itself. ... but it looks good next to the MSN article! |
I have no idea what you've just type... whatever you're trying to say has not made sense to me.
moshkito wrote:
I am of the opinion that PA has to do some cleaning, or it's going to lose its luster and eventually people ... and that would be really sad ... but I'm not sure this can happen, when a lot of the suggestions and ideas come back a bit on the combative side of things ... I can relate ... my ole roomie makes over 70k working with databases, mail servers and security ... in general it is always "too hard" to "change" or "update" anything ... because the focus is always somewhere else. But he got a new job and gained 10k more when the attitude changed!
The difference between the good database programmer and the rest? ... open ears and ideas ... not saying ... can't be done!
So I just have fun! And tomorrow it will be another game ... it's the nature of the Internet and loyalty, isn't it? ... |
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Shouldn't Damo be the one to decide if this belongs in his thread? I understand that perhaps discussion of forum reforms may not belong here but I think discussion of adding interviews to the database certainly applies?
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18134
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:31 |
DamoXt7942 wrote:
Well again please let me propose, we should clarify the process of evaluation for subgenre candidates, including Proto-Prog and Prog-Related. We subgenre teams maybe have tried to show the process in the artist's thread of "Suggest ... " Forum if possible (sometimes lazy as honestly I say  ), but should we try harder to do so?  |
I actually think that something like that should be in a Forum a lot more than it should be listed as a bonafide music scene. But who knows ... one article in Seattle calls it "grunge" and it becomes famous for the next 20 years ... ?
I also don't know how to present this ... but there is some "scene" information that we need to update and upgrade our DEFINITION of progressive music, and where it came from, so that we don't look uneducated and silly ... and a BBC special shows us ... what I have been saying all along that is really hard for many folks to work with and accept, much less discuss, unless you were there.
For all intents and purposes, we are in a position to put together the best information, diary, library, anywhere on the Internet, but for this to happen, a lot of the things that are being said here need to be looked at appreciated, and we need a few more people that can say ... we need to add that ... instead of the opposite.
I remember the discussion on one of my first postings here with a kid that had been in the Iron Curtain, and the things I wrote were valuable and neat, and even he thought so and added to it ... but the value of that, and even how something like that last song in Guru Guru's Tango Fango album comes around ... is totally lost because we thing that the music can only follow some musical precepts and nothing else ... and in the end, the whole thing about music history? ... break all the previous precepts and create new ones for tomorrow ... but in this sense, we are horrible historians, and on top of it ... have a tendency to disperse the value of a discussion with comments that do not help the value of the thread ... and that is one thing that anyone involved with the QUALITY of the work needs to learn to appreciate a bit more ... doesn't mean that Snow Dog or Walter can't add their 2 cents worth, but in the end, we just need to have a little more care and respect for the work itself ...
And YES ... I do have a lot of respect for a lot of the work that many folks do here ... a lot ... and I would be a jerk to not appreciate the insane time and effort for someone like Torodog (hehe!) to get that many interviews in so short a period of time. For my effort I am trying to get a couple of major ones added here if I can ... I have to get permissions first.
And yes, what PA needs is a Gonzo, and a few more writers that shake up the pipes!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:23 |
moshkito wrote:
And the music is not allowed to die ... regardless of the God or nature out there!
DamoXt7942 wrote:
... I'm much concerned with the past, the present, and the future of Progarchives ... the way of artist evaluation and inclusion, the bulky database currently expanding day after day (including some "problematic" inclusion cases in the distant past PA foundered with confusing), and democratic manner in future. ... |
I have, in the past made quite a few requests to that effect.
I agree with some of the things that Dean and others, have said ... but I also think that a strict repository for everything from junk to gold is a bit of a problem and pretty soon the real estate is going to be acquired by someone else that has better ideas of what to do with all that space ... and junk!
The best example is the list of "unreviewed albums" where the listing for some is crazy, repetitive and put together by someone that did not look at the material ... when it is asking for reviews for singles and in some cases we are talking 5 or 6 reviews that can be done within the album context ... maybe even "linking" that single to the album would make a lot better sense than adding another review for 25 or 6 to 4 ... that is insane ... and a serious time waster and space waster. Pretty soon we should review all three versions of "Light My Fire" ... the LP version, the bootleg version and of course ... the 2 minute AM version of the song? ... give it a break ... !!! Stop the foolishness! |
No. We list the full official discography of every group listed. If they recorded and released it we list it. No ifs, buts or maybes. We do not list bootlegs - they are not official releases and will not be listed here. If you don't want to write a review for teh 24th version of Light My Fire then don't write a review for it - be your own editor.
moshkito wrote:
My main concern for a little "cleaning" is NOT to delete groups, or artists, but I think that IF we clean up the definition and its sub-divisions BY OURSELVES, not some outside nobody's opinion ... SINCE we HAVE the biggest and the best list of ALL, and therefore are way more qualified to make an opinion and judgement on the issue. But there are some "reviews" that really do not fit in a "review" area ... but they are fairly good to be on a thread about that group or such ... so the database could have a thread tied to that group ... for example. |
No. Anyone can write a review and have it listed - good, bad or average it makes no difference - everyone is equal regardless of their skills in writing or music appreciation. If you want sanitised, edited reviews by jaded hacks go elsewhere. If you want to know what real people really feel about an album, here we are.
moshkito wrote:
The other part, is ... the Forums. I like them. But there are a lot of things in the forums that probably could get weaned and probably killed and simplified. Also the sending of messages to other groups is a hassle, because you just about will never know where your message went if it was in the wrong group to begin with ... and it is easiest to have an all open thread and from there the admins send everything forth to the proper areas. This would affect the newbies more than us ... since we know where to go, but I have to say that at least 15 to 20 threads I have not bothered with and that I have lost more topics and threads than you can imagine. Not to mention that the Search tool is not user friendly at all and has some requests and information that 99% of us would never know how to use! |
The forum is the forum - debate reforming that elsewhere, not in this thread - this is about the PA database. We don't need tangential off topic discussions in this thread.
moshkito wrote:
The interviews. Too much of that stuff is LOST. All of these need to be locked and hooked up to the artist information ... PERIOD. With one problem ... a lot of the artist information is NOT including the interview information ... either the person writing it never saw it, or they did not know how to work with what was said about the music through the artist's words. Or the interview came later, but this is where the person in charge of that area/group, should check to make sure the information is used and updated. |
Interviews are part of the forum, no the PA database - the database is an archive of discographies and reviews, it is not a Prog ezine. Perhaps Interviews could be part of the database - it is something to discuss, but not in this thread.
moshkito wrote:
My view is ... yes we maybe reviewers, but we need to commit to the ART and the ARTIST ... not our imaginary definitions ... and the choices on this matter need to be done according to that ... not someone's knowledge of "neo-prog", which slants the reviews and the group/artist information into an area that separates it from the art and the work itself. ... but it looks good next to the MSN article! |
I have no idea what you've just type... whatever you're trying to say has not made sense to me.
moshkito wrote:
I am of the opinion that PA has to do some cleaning, or it's going to lose its luster and eventually people ... and that would be really sad ... but I'm not sure this can happen, when a lot of the suggestions and ideas come back a bit on the combative side of things ... I can relate ... my ole roomie makes over 70k working with databases, mail servers and security ... in general it is always "too hard" to "change" or "update" anything ... because the focus is always somewhere else. But he got a new job and gained 10k more when the attitude changed!
The difference between the good database programmer and the rest? ... open ears and ideas ... not saying ... can't be done!
So I just have fun! And tomorrow it will be another game ... it's the nature of the Internet and loyalty, isn't it? ... |
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What?
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:14 |
moshkito wrote:
And the music is not allowed to die ... regardless of the God or nature out there!
DamoXt7942 wrote:
... I'm much concerned with the past, the present, and the future of Progarchives ... the way of artist evaluation and inclusion, the bulky database currently expanding day after day (including some "problematic" inclusion cases in the distant past PA foundered with confusing), and democratic manner in future. ... |
I have, in the past made quite a few requests to that effect.
I agree with some of the things that Dean and others, have said ... but I also think that a strict repository for everything from junk to gold is a bit of a problem and pretty soon the real estate is going to be acquired by someone else that has better ideas of what to do with all that space ... and junk!
The other part, is ... the Forums. I like them. But there are a lot of things in the forums that probably could get weaned and probably killed and simplified. Also the sending of messages to other groups is a hassle, because you just about will never know where your message went if it was in the wrong group to begin with ... and it is easiest to have an all open thread and from there the admins send everything forth to the proper areas. This would affect the newbies more than us ... since we know where to go, but I have to say that at least 15 to 20 threads I have not bothered with and that I have lost more topics and threads than you can imagine. Not to mention that the Search tool is not user friendly at all and has some requests and information that 99% of us would never know how to use!
The interviews. Too much of that stuff is LOST. All of these need to be locked and hooked up to the artist information ... PERIOD. With one problem ... a lot of the artist information is NOT including the interview information ... either the person writing it never saw it, or they did not know how to work with what was said about the music through the artist's words. Or the interview came later, but this is where the person in charge of that area/group, should check to make sure the information is used and updated.
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The complicated forum is the biggest downfall of this site and it seems that we spend more and more time chastizing newbies who post in the wrong spot rather than fixing the root problem which is the way the forum has been set up. Admins are always instructing newbies to use the search function but the search function is no good. I have searched for specific articles I myself started and havn't been able to find them because the interface is so bad.
As to the interviews it only makes sence to have them linked to the artist page and preserved in a form beyond being a thread in a forum. We have some great and informative interviews in this forum, its time they recieve the status of being artist interviews and not just posts in among the rest.
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 18134
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 19:02 |
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And the music is not allowed to die ... regardless of the God or nature out there!
DamoXt7942 wrote:
... I'm much concerned with the past, the present, and the future of Progarchives ... the way of artist evaluation and inclusion, the bulky database currently expanding day after day (including some "problematic" inclusion cases in the distant past PA foundered with confusing), and democratic manner in future. ... |
I have, in the past made quite a few requests to that effect.
I agree with some of the things that Dean and others, have said ... but I also think that a strict repository for everything from junk to gold is a bit of a problem and pretty soon the real estate is going to be acquired by someone else that has better ideas of what to do with all that space ... and junk!
The best example is the list of "unreviewed albums" where the listing for some is crazy, repetitive and put together by someone that did not look at the material ... when it is asking for reviews for singles and in some cases we are talking 5 or 6 reviews that can be done within the album context ... maybe even "linking" that single to the album would make a lot better sense than adding another review for 25 or 6 to 4 ... that is insane ... and a serious time waster and space waster. Pretty soon we should review all three versions of "Light My Fire" ... the LP version, the bootleg version and of course ... the 2 minute AM version of the song? ... give it a break ... !!! Stop the foolishness!
My main concern for a little "cleaning" is NOT to delete groups, or artists, but I think that IF we clean up the definition and its sub-divisions BY OURSELVES, not some outside nobody's opinion ... SINCE we HAVE the biggest and the best list of ALL, and therefore are way more qualified to make an opinion and judgement on the issue. But there are some "reviews" that really do not fit in a "review" area ... but they are fairly good to be on a thread about that group or such ... so the database could have a thread tied to that group ... for example.
The other part, is ... the Forums. I like them. But there are a lot of things in the forums that probably could get weaned and probably killed and simplified. Also the sending of messages to other groups is a hassle, because you just about will never know where your message went if it was in the wrong group to begin with ... and it is easiest to have an all open thread and from there the admins send everything forth to the proper areas. This would affect the newbies more than us ... since we know where to go, but I have to say that at least 15 to 20 threads I have not bothered with and that I have lost more topics and threads than you can imagine. Not to mention that the Search tool is not user friendly at all and has some requests and information that 99% of us would never know how to use!
The interviews. Too much of that stuff is LOST. All of these need to be locked and hooked up to the artist information ... PERIOD. With one problem ... a lot of the artist information is NOT including the interview information ... either the person writing it never saw it, or they did not know how to work with what was said about the music through the artist's words. Or the interview came later, but this is where the person in charge of that area/group, should check to make sure the information is used and updated.
My view is ... yes we maybe reviewers, but we need to commit to the ART and the ARTIST ... not our imaginary definitions ... and the choices on this matter need to be done according to that ... not someone's knowledge of "neo-prog", which slants the reviews and the group/artist information into an area that separates it from the art and the work itself. ... but it looks good next to the MSN article!
I am of the opinion that PA has to do some cleaning, or it's going to lose its luster and eventually people ... and that would be really sad ... but I'm not sure this can happen, when a lot of the suggestions and ideas come back a bit on the combative side of things ... I can relate ... my ole roomie makes over 70k working with databases, mail servers and security ... in general it is always "too hard" to "change" or "update" anything ... because the focus is always somewhere else. But he got a new job and gained 10k more when the attitude changed!
The difference between the good database programmer and the rest? ... open ears and ideas ... not saying ... can't be done!
So I just have fun! And tomorrow it will be another game ... it's the nature of the Internet and loyalty, isn't it? ...
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|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Proletariat
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 30 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1882
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 17:32 |
Eetu Pellonpää wrote:
clarke2001 wrote:
I would rather like to see PA database expanded to include certain artists:
1.) Prog-psych-hard rock-jam bands of early 70's ('proto' after 'proto prog' period)
2.) Avant-pop complex artists of new wave/no-wave period
3.) World fusion
4.) Some electronica (IDM in Warp Records style and similar granular textures)
5.) some classical Heavy Metal which borrows from classical prog - multi-part long compositions, bass solos etc. (Helloween, even Manowar, but not Running Wild)
6.) perhaps neo-classical gothic music
7.) prog-related needs EXPANSION (there's a good reason why - I'll elaborate why if anyone insists)
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Great post!
Won't hesitate the lure of dropping some comments of the cases you mentioned:
Case 1; I guess they kind of continued the musical style of 1965-1970's, and I would not mind studying interests if these early 70's bands could be verified from prog related scope, being part of the "proto prog" movement, but not leaving completelly those paths, where the most experimental and artistically vivid rock musicians of 1970's did. Musically I believe these should often interest listeners of 60's music.
About types 2-4 and 6, I would be interested to hear more about. I have some records of case type 3 spinning on my players.
Personally not so interested that I could credibly comment 5, but on...
case 7, I agree with you.
I think this is mostly due my personal insight to the vague, dramatic, and difficultly defined concept of term "proggressive rock".
I personally consider many pre-1969 records as full progressive music (the first Floyd records for example). These are most often psychedelic & folk styled records, not "symphonic prog". For me the artistic and impressionistic approach implemented to the tonal expression of rock music, expanding it away from non-expressive commercial rock, this is something assicating with the term discussed. |
I strongly agree with this line of thinking. Also I am worried that if we begin deleting bands many of my favorite bands that many on this site do not seem to see the value of will be deleted. Not only this but I think that the old line of "there is no if X then Y on this site" shoud be removed. After all this is how genres traditionally have been defined and have evolved in the world of music journalism. Upon suggesting some "different" bands to Math-Rock I was confronted by those on the genre team who were trapped in their own line of thinking and would not accept the bands even though the world of Math-Rock outside of PA had labeled them such. The fact is that these bands are obscure and will not be hurting the sites credibility and they are all proggy and are similar in style to many bands on the site. However the previous bands were added by previous genre teams who held different viewpoints than the current teams when the individuals changed so did the databases standards of inclusion no matter how well worded the genre definitions are this is unavoidable. To not add bands similar to those previously added seems hipocritical and how is a simple forum member to argue a bands case without comparisons?
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who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob
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Eetu Pellonpaa
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 17 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 4828
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 10:58 |
clarke2001 wrote:
I would rather like to see PA database expanded to include certain artists:
1.) Prog-psych-hard rock-jam bands of early 70's ('proto' after 'proto prog' period)
2.) Avant-pop complex artists of new wave/no-wave period
3.) World fusion
4.) Some electronica (IDM in Warp Records style and similar granular textures)
5.) some classical Heavy Metal which borrows from classical prog - multi-part long compositions, bass solos etc. (Helloween, even Manowar, but not Running Wild)
6.) perhaps neo-classical gothic music
7.) prog-related needs EXPANSION (there's a good reason why - I'll elaborate why if anyone insists)
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Great post!
Won't hesitate the lure of dropping some comments of the cases you mentioned:
Case 1; I guess they kind of continued the musical style of 1965-1970's, and I would not mind studying interests if these early 70's bands could be verified from prog related scope, being part of the "proto prog" movement, but not leaving completelly those paths, where the most experimental and artistically vivid rock musicians of 1970's did. Musically I believe these should often interest listeners of 60's music.
About types 2-4 and 6, I would be interested to hear more about. I have some records of case type 3 spinning on my players.
Personally not so interested that I could credibly comment 5, but on...
case 7, I agree with you.
I think this is mostly due my personal insight to the vague, dramatic, and difficultly defined concept of term "proggressive rock".
I personally consider many pre-1969 records as full progressive music (the first Floyd records for example). These are most often psychedelic & folk styled records, not "symphonic prog". For me the artistic and impressionistic approach implemented to the tonal expression of rock music, expanding it away from non-expressive commercial rock, this is something assicating with the term discussed.
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 10:41 |
ExittheLemming wrote:
clarke2001 wrote:
I would rather like to see PA database expanded to include certain artists:
1.) Prog-psych-hard rock-jam bands of early 70's ('proto' after 'proto prog' period)
2.) Avant-pop complex artists of new wave/no-wave period
3.) World fusion
4.) Some electronica (IDM in Warp Records style and similar granular textures)
5.) some classical Heavy Metal which borrows from classical prog - multi-part long compositions, bass solos etc. (Helloween, even Manowar, but not Running Wild)
6.) perhaps neo-classical gothic music
7.) prog-related needs EXPANSION (there's a good reason why - I'll elaborate why if anyone insists)
By adding these, we would not open the flood gates - a huge mass of ProgArchives will simply relocate its barycenter a bit.
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I do insist you elaborate on 7) as I think I probably may agree with you
Even within this thread there is the dogged insistence that some artists are 100% Prog (Not even ELP or Yes are that)
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There may be more reasons, but this is what I have in mind: It's simple. Let's say we have a popular rock artist/band which is very influential to music scene - even nowadays. If such an artist was somewhat influenced with prog rock, and released let's say one 100% prog album, while remaining artsy-fartsy with some light prog overtones while doing non-prog music, and being also somewhat influential on newer prog bands...well, such an artist is a good candidate for a prog-related category. Nothing new here. But if we think on a local level, there must be artists which were influential on their local scene, only we know nothing about them. There are hundreds of countries in the world - some of them won't have any, some of them might have up to five bands. I know nothing about artists that were influential (and dabbling in prog) in Spain, Mexico, Hungary, Switzerland, Australia etc. Following that reasoning, prog-related might embrace at least 200 or more bands in the future. If you have other ideas in mind, speak up!
Edited by clarke2001 - March 23 2011 at 10:42
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11420
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 09:39 |
clarke2001 wrote:
I would rather like to see PA database expanded to include certain artists:
1.) Prog-psych-hard rock-jam bands of early 70's ('proto' after 'proto prog' period)
2.) Avant-pop complex artists of new wave/no-wave period
3.) World fusion
4.) Some electronica (IDM in Warp Records style and similar granular textures)
5.) some classical Heavy Metal which borrows from classical prog - multi-part long compositions, bass solos etc. (Helloween, even Manowar, but not Running Wild)
6.) perhaps neo-classical gothic music
7.) prog-related needs EXPANSION (there's a good reason why - I'll elaborate why if anyone insists)
By adding these, we would not open the flood gates - a huge mass of ProgArchives will simply relocate its barycenter a bit.
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I do insist you elaborate on 7) as I think I probably may agree with you Even within this thread there is the dogged insistence that some artists are 100% Prog (Not even ELP or Yes are that)
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clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 09:12 |
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I would rather like to see PA database expanded to include certain artists:
1.) Prog-psych-hard rock-jam bands of early 70's ('proto' after 'proto prog' period)
2.) Avant-pop complex artists of new wave/no-wave period
3.) World fusion
4.) Some electronica (IDM in Warp Records style and similar granular textures)
5.) some classical Heavy Metal which borrows from classical prog - multi-part long compositions, bass solos etc. (Helloween, even Manowar, but not Running Wild)
6.) perhaps neo-classical gothic music
7.) prog-related needs EXPANSION (there's a good reason why - I'll elaborate why if anyone insists)
By adding these, we would not open the flood gates - a huge mass of ProgArchives will simply relocate its barycenter a bit.
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator
Prog Folk
Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 20436
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 06:26 |
Padraic wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
If we're going to put your ideas to a vote, I'd vote no. I am strictly against removing things just because a lot of people may not approve. Even the controversial artists aren't added without evaluation and careful consideration. I think we draw a pretty good line, but almost no one's going to agree on it's boundaries. |
Just wanted to add, however, that when this site was in its infancy there were no genre teams and no "eval" procedure as we know it today - I believe one could find some artists added during this time that most might agree don't belong.
That said, there is probably such a small number of these cases it's probably not worth the time and energy rooting them out and removing them.
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If some of the additions during the "PA infancy stage" , starting in january 2004, (define how long was its "infancy"  ) are debatable... it's generally very much obscure ones, so we'd probably not make a difference in that regard
Back then (in the "infancy"), there was so much 100% prog acts to add, that no-one actually thought about including non-prog acts...
In late 2005 (Sept to Nov), there was a huge upheaval and the prog-related genre was created precisely to allow a first clean-up and teams were set-up from that moment onwards (and that's where the problems started  ) , so I'd sat that PA's infancy lasted from Feb 04 until Nov 05.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 06:13 |
Padraic wrote:
And now for an off-topic: I always thought Dean's avatar was Tracy Ullman
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Oh dear. 
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DamoXt7942
Special Collaborator
Joined: October 15 2008
Location: Okayama, Japan
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: March 23 2011 at 05:59 |
Erm, thanks mates posting here, for throwing opinions and comments to me ... especially Dean and Bob, many appreciated to explain the meaning of "vacant" artist ID seats.  Everyone hopes PA can show something of improvement, but almost all cannot accept opportunities of drastic change ... as I've expected previously ... but this result is pretty alright for me, because this thread is not an order nor a persuasion, but my proposal with humble opinions. 
Epochgnosis wrote:
In other
words, suppose the Eclectic team added Lady Gaga. Could we simply
dispel the controversy that would be raised on this site by saying,
"Yeah, but we worked very hard to add and review this artist!"  |
Just in democratic manner, this is acceptable at least for me (certainly in the minority ). Anyway, it's a pity here's not come who I would like to ask for these controversial issues. 
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Reforming the PA database in democratic manner
