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b_olariu 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: March 02 2007 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 5536 |
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 Posted: March 20 2011 at 06:56 |
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I'm agree with Ivan, there is a limit to everything, I myself can log under other name and give to all 1 star albums I don't like, I can to rate 100 in 1 hour, easy. This thing must be stoped, realy otherwhise this PA will turn into nothing but manipulators site, every dude with internet can do that even thay have nothing to do with music and prog more specific. Is a shame because some albums don't desearve to be treated like this, for some looser are nothing but bad rate, to others like me , some releases made history or are dear in some way or another. Just an opinion btw
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Dean
Special Collaborator 
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 05:55 |
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You really don't have to justify your logic to anyone else but yourself. You are allowed to have your opinion and are allowed to give whatever rating you like to whatever album you like. I probably won't agree with your opinions or your ratings for quite a lot of those albums or your choice of albums to review and rate, but that is permitted too - I'm allowed not to agree with them and if I think that the logic for deliberately down-marking what you consider to be a possible 4-star album by a whole 2-stars is bad then I am allowed to have that opinion and I am allowed say so (by that logic you should knock at least 1 maybe 2 stars off every Yes rating btw). However, you did give your reasons for down-marking and you have repeated that justification here, which only reinforces my view that it is a terrible way to rate an album in my opinion, especially one where you say it is maybe a 4-star album, indicating that you actually agree with the 96 4 & 5 star reviews, the 269 4 & 5 star rating-onlys and the 4.36 average that the album has.
The review weighting of 10 and the collaborator weighting of 20 is designed to overcome the rating-only abuses, no other corrective action is needed. My reviews have a value 20 times more than a rating-only, whether they are worth that is a different question because it assumes that every rating-only is manipulative and I don't believe that they are. I prefer to see the weighting as a means to encourage people to write reviews, not as a means to discourage rating-only, then my glass is half-full.
Anyone who deliberately down-marks a rating because they disagree with the average rating is being manipulative IMO whereas someone who down-marks because they don't like some aspect of the album is perfectly within their rights and is doing nothing wrong. It does not mean that I like what either of them are doing in down-marking an album nor do I have to keep quiet and withold my opinion.
The number of 1-star ratings any one gives to albums by any group or in any subgenre is irrelevant - they are not accumulative, we don't add them up to calculate an average scores for an artist or a subgenre. It does not matter whether you review 1 Texh/Extreme album to 1,000,000 - you have one vote per album and one opinion per album and that is it. If you like or don't like the subgenre then 1 review is the same as 56 reviews and 200 reviews is the same as 1 review.
Finding people who don't like death-growls is not difficult, similarily finding death-growls in Tech/Extreme Metal is also not difficult, so finding someone who gives 1-star to Still Life while 5-staring every other subgenre is hardly a revelation or a surprise.
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 27 2010 Location: Tel Aviv Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
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Posted: March 20 2011 at 00:37 |
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[/QUOTE] Well no. How can you tell how much time and thought he put into reviewing that album? As a non-English speaker he evidently put a some amount of effort into writing them, and certainly they were as long and as informative as countless other reviews I've read. If we banned everyone who I believed hadn't given enought time and thought into reviewing an album our site would be empty - how anyone can write a review after hearing an album for merely a month puzzles me, that they can write a review after hearing an album once is something I'll never accept - some reviews around here read like the reviewer is writing it as they hear the album for the first time - HOWEVER, we have no such rule and people can put as much or as little effort into writing a review as they like. Similarly we cannot dictate which subgenres and albums a member is not allowed to review, to do that would be wrong - any member can review or rate any number of albums in any subgenre - to impose any rule to the contrary would be wrong - that would be the worse kind of censorship and something that I cannot and will not support.
Nor should we ban them for writing reviews for a subgenre they clearly do not like - to do that would also be wrong. It is impossibe to screw-up a genre by 1-star rating - the mathematics proves that - one member one vote/album - the voting of one member isn't going to affect the consensus vote enough to make a difference. Also, how can you assume that 8 1-star ratings for Genesis would not be unfair but one 1-star review for The Cardiacs is unfair - that does not make sense, if I said that all those 1-star reviews were for Collins era Genesis then some kind of grudge could be construed from that, but that still wouldn't be proof. And even it it was true and could be proven that still isn't breaking any rules or a reason for banning them.
I understand what you're saying and you're right, but that's not what I was saying. I didn't say people shouldn't be allowed to review sub-genres they don't like, how could anyone manage to stop them? I'm saying that if they know they that sub-genre they should refrain from being too critical, or in ahmetbolanyig's case, rate a bunch of albums 1-star. But you're right I guess, there really isn't anything to do about it... even though the lack of thought put into it or the vastness of the ratings definitely infuriates me. I guess people should just be better people... or maybe not that but better prog reviewers.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 23:38 |
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Hey,. I'm giving them all the albums my sister left in the houwe before marrying, like Grease, Ricky Martin or Donna Summer, that will hurt the poor kids more than the anodyne and toothless Spock's Beard.  ,The problem is that the church will more likely sell Grease or Ricky Martin than Spock's Beard  Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 23:33 |
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My opinion hasn't changed, I believe ratings without reviews are negative and say nothing, but if a person rates ALL THE ALBUMS OF ONE GENRE or even 90%, this person is not really interested in collaborating with the site, but misleading people. Iván BTW: I'm not the only one who has that opinion, there's a 1 star review saying "Please, members of Opeth, if you are reading this: STOP the growls. Make another album like Damnation. Please. Stop wasting your talents."...So there's people who agree with my opinion. And even if not...At least they have something to agree or disagree with
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - March 19 2011 at 23:45 |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 19:23 |
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Similarly we cannot dictate which subgenres and albums a member is not allowed to review, to do that would be wrong - any member can review or rate any number of albums in any subgenre - to impose any rule to the contrary would be wrong - that would be the worse kind of censorship and something that I cannot and will not support.
Nor should we ban them for writing reviews for a subgenre they clearly do not like - to do that would also be wrong. It is impossibe to screw-up a genre by 1-star rating - the mathematics proves that - one member one vote/album - the voting of one member isn't going to affect the consensus vote enough to make a difference. Also, how can you assume that 8 1-star ratings for Genesis would not be unfair but one 1-star review for The Cardiacs is unfair - that does not make sense, if I said that all those 1-star reviews were for Collins era Genesis then some kind of grudge could be construed from that, but that still wouldn't be proof. And even it it was true and could be proven that still isn't breaking any rules or a reason for banning them.
Mr Bolanyig got banned for having two accounts (proven by two separate methods which I will not elaborate on), not for what he reviewed or how many 1-star ratings he gave. He broke a rule that earns an instant banning - "no multiple accounts are permitted".
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 27 2010 Location: Tel Aviv Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 18:33 |
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Look, of course that drawing a line is a difficult if not impossible thing to do. But you can see that this guy is off to screw up an entire sub-genre for no particular reason. If you gave me eight one-star reviews of all Genesis albums, and elaborated on why you dislike the albums so much and what are the reasons these albums shouldn't listened to, than fine! Even excellent! If anyone would review an album like "Sing To God", which I put in my top 2 albums, and give it a one-star, but justify why he gives this album one star and explains the faults of the album, what am I to do against it? It's when an album gets unfairly reviewed when I have a problem. I don't think people should review sub-genres here that they have some sort of grudge against (not that I'm the one to stop them from doing it). For example, I disagree so very strongly with Neo-Prog and the music many of these groups wrote and the elements used in the album that I would give all their albums no higher than 2-stars. But I'll never do it because Neo-Prog is a sub-genre I have not learned to understand or appreciate, and it's not fair for people looking for the very things that I don't like to listen to, as my reviews and rating would spoil the band's rating average (or whatever you call it), and band's who made great (great not for me but still great) music won't be as popular or as widespread because one jerk, or many jerks, have just an annoying hatred for Neo-Prog or any other sub-genre. When someone like Silber comes just to rate albums 1-star, because he dislikes genres as a whole, that ticks me off I won't lie. Is he entitled to his opinion? Of course. But when he hasn't listened to any of these albums (I'm assuming he at least didn't listen to most of them), it's... trolling. There's really no word to describe it. And when it's this obvious this guy isn't really legitimate he deserves to banned, because he's giving his official critique to something he hasn't really put much time and thought in.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32553 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 18:16 |
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I object to Ivan giving the Parish guy Spock's Beard's "f**k YOU!" album for the poor kids.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 18:12 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 16:26 |
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Yes Dean, but I believe there must be a limit. I rated one Tech Extreme Metal album with 2 stars. but:
I don't believe for a second that this guy bought 56 albums of a genre he hates (all are rated with one star) and 100 Prog Metal albums, (All except 2 a re rated with one star)...Each and every album without a support or a reason. Sorry, I don't buy this and I'm 100% sure that if this guy has heard 3 albums out of 156 is too much. Iván. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 15:18 |
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Siber and Ahmetbolanyig have been kicked off the site, but not for how they rate or review albums. They were ejected for being the same person and for no other reason.
The rating for "Sing to God" should go up to 4.55 (ish) soon, once the removal of this miscreant has filtered through the cache. Whether an album is rated at 4.31 or 4.55 will not affect its sales.
HOWEVER: People can review an album however they like - it is not for us to decide that someone is not permitted to review just because we don't agree with them. To do that is fundamentally wrong.
Edited by Dean - March 19 2011 at 18:24 |
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frippism
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 27 2010 Location: Tel Aviv Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
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Posted: March 19 2011 at 13:01 |
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Definitely on the bigger albums, but the smaller (less popular) albums? Albums that are complete masterpieces, yet some jerk rated it 1 star, not knowing anything of the album, and ruins the rating, and nobody would interested in discovering the album, and nobody would be interested in listening to it to review it and attract a wider audience. It's dangerous. I say delete ratings in general. Concerning Silber, which rated all RIO albums 1 star, and the only album he decided to review, is Cardiacs' "Sing To God", and also Ahmetbolanyig, who has rated almost all (all but "Hot Rats") one star, and "Sing To God" is one of his only reviews, have dramatically hurt the general view of the album, and of Cardiacs. And considering the situation, where as I already said, lead singer Tim Smith is 2.5 years now recovering from a stroke, this review hurts album sales, and decreases people's interest, in a time where every album sold goes straight to help Tim Smith's recovery And these 2 reviews have dramatically decreased the album's rating, and less people will be interested in buying it. AND of course, considering the music is so great in the first place, and all they are doing is reviewing a whole sub-genre and labeling crap, without really knowing what they're talking about many times!
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14589 |
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Posted: February 16 2011 at 00:12 |
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Good point. But he's mainly from Symphonic and neo-prog. For him melody is important. My concern was about KC that are not always so "melodic", and this is what I wrote in my message.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14589 |
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Posted: February 16 2011 at 00:08 |
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Good choice. Let's continue, if it's the case, on a most appropriate place.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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AtomicCrimsonRush
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14258 |
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Posted: February 15 2011 at 23:17 |
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It beamed over here. Once again the review itself is not that bad but its a bit misinformed... as to what prog is. Since when was melody important?
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37525 |
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Posted: February 15 2011 at 21:57 |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37525 |
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Posted: February 15 2011 at 21:50 |
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I don't know if there's any problem, but I took it that that was likely to be
Edited by Logan - February 15 2011 at 22:04 |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
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Posted: February 15 2011 at 21:32 |
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Is that really a problem? If we're assuming it is the same person, maybe he decided to jettison the old account, and as long as the ratings don't overlap I think that's ok. |
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group
Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37525 |
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Posted: February 15 2011 at 21:09 |
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I'd like to move comments to Reviews discussion after supper. I took it that the problem is not that the review itself is problematic, but that it looks like the same person might have written it who wrote the removed TAAB review (multiple account issue then). Edited by Logan - February 15 2011 at 21:10 |
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AtomicCrimsonRush
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 02 2008 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 14258 |
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Posted: February 15 2011 at 21:03 |
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Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: