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Daggor View Drop Down
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Points: 12 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: Reconsidering Stratovarius
    Posted: February 26 2011 at 15:33
I saw that a few years ago there was quite a lengthy discussion on the inclusion of Stratovarius that ultimately sided with them not being included shortly before the release of "Polaris", in 2009. I think, given especially their latest release, "Elysium", that maybe they should be looked at again?

The case:
First of all, the first 4 albums (Fright Night, Twilight Time, Dreamspace, and Fourth Dimension). The next 4 (Episode, Visions, Destiny, and Infinite) moved in a power direction, but it was a kind of progressed power metal that made heavy use of keyboards, technicality, classical influence, and at times, nonstandard song structure.

The next 2 albums (Elements Pt. I, and Elements Pt. II) after that, were very symphonic, different from the previous 4, but more power than prog.

After that, was the highly controversial self titled album, while it wasn't necessarily a consensus GOOD album, it was very prog, making use of instrumental variety, and very dark, prog atmospheres, somewhat similar to Dreamspace.

After that, the band goes through a creative upheaval, with main songwriter Timo Tolkki leaving the band, replaced by Matias Kupiainen, and along with Keyboardist Jens Johansson, and Bassist Lauri Porra (Who had been in the band 3 years before Tolkki's departure) take over the sound. Jens comes from a background of both neo-classical and jazz fusion playing, while Matias comes from a prog background, and Lauri has quite a few different things going on with his writing.

Their newest album, Elysium, contains an 18 minute title track, and the album as a whole very much moves the. band in a prog direction.

My main argument would be that if the band was on the fence before, the previous 2 albums should push them clearly into the prog category. Enjoy


Samples:

Era 1(Tolkki Vocal era):

Era 2(Late 90s fame):

Era 3(Elements): 

Era 3(Self Titled):

Era 4 (Post-Tolkki):
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DamoXt7942 View Drop Down
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2011 at 17:42
They've been rejected (as Prog-Metal and also Prog-Related) every time they be suggested ... at least till previous album was released.
Their new album I've not listened to, but are there some dramatic changes in them?
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Daggor View Drop Down
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Points: 12 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2011 at 19:07
There have been 2 released since the topic was closed. As I explained, there's an entirely new core of songwriters, the first 4 albums speak for themselves as prog, and I think the new album pushes it over the top as prog. 

Here's an 18 minute song if you're not convinced.
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CCVP View Drop Down
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2011 at 19:16
OK, listen, this band have only been somewhere close to progressive metal @ Dreamscape, period.

One song from their newest album, which I own, is NOT a good enough argument to make them become prog out of nowhere. It was not three weeks ago that I (and the rest of the team) mentioned that their latest isn't prog enough and I don't think our convincement is going to change so fast.
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Daggor View Drop Down
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Points: 12 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2011 at 19:37
"Somewhere close to" on Dreamspace. I get that you're trying to make a point, and thus drastically overstating your argument, but there is no way to classify Dreamspace anything but absolute prog metal.

I think the site's decision is a matter of bias, because I would say of their 13 studio albums, the first 4 and the most recent 3 (IE more than half) are easily prog metal. 


Edited by Daggor - February 26 2011 at 19:50
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CCVP View Drop Down
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 26 2011 at 20:39
Originally posted by Daggor Daggor wrote:

"Somewhere close to" on Dreamspace. I get that you're trying to make a point, and thus drastically overstating your argument, but there is no way to classify Dreamspace anything but absolute prog metal.

I think the site's decision is a matter of bias, because I would say of their 13 studio albums, the first 4 and the most recent 3 (IE more than half) are easily prog metal. 


I hope that you understand that about 25 people were, at some point in time, part of the progressive metal team and none of them signalized support for Strato. The band has been unanimously rejected many, many times and a consensus has been reached that they are simply not material for PA. Since then, the band's was not fomally evaluated anymore and acumulated 13 negative votes and 12 omissions (members who did not formally made a stance about the band).

I doubt that a concensus made of 25 people would repeatedly make the very same mistake over the course of 6 years and many different evaluations by very different team members.

If I will give you a piece of advice and ask you to contribute about Stratovarius here.
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Bonnek View Drop Down
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Points: 4521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2011 at 05:42
Originally posted by CCVP CCVP wrote:


I doubt that a concensus made of 25 people would repeatedly make the very same mistake over the course of 6 years and many different evaluations by very different team members.

If I will give you a piece of advice and ask you to contribute about Stratovarius here.


This
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The Great Duck View Drop Down
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Points: 17 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2011 at 10:52
Are people here really unaware of the other,bigger Metal Archives,making MMA more or less useless?
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Bonnek View Drop Down
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Points: 4521 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2011 at 11:34
Originally posted by The Great Duck The Great Duck wrote:

Are people here really unaware of the other,bigger Metal Archives,making MMA more or less useless?


Boo! Metal Archives has a clumsy interface, it doesn't offer half of the functionality that MMA has, and it doesn't promote the reviews enough. I appreciate the site as a reference for facts but that's it.
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The Neck Romancer View Drop Down
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Points: 10185 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2011 at 11:35
Originally posted by The Great Duck The Great Duck wrote:

Are people here really unaware of the other,bigger Metal Archives,making MMA more or less useless?

Kinda, and they also want to show to everyone their favorite band is "progressive".


I've done that before once though Embarrassed
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Easy Livin View Drop Down
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2011 at 12:32
I have always supported this band's inclusion, but they were rejected again (for prog related) only last year, and this was confirmed by M@x the site owner. There really is no point in resurrecting the issue now, they will not be added.
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Desoc View Drop Down
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Points: 216 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 27 2011 at 14:50
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

I have always supported this band's inclusion, but they were rejected again (for prog related) only last year, and this was confirmed by M@x the site owner. There really is no point in resurrecting the issue now, they will not be added.


I don't know or care about Stratovarius, but I recall a similar if not identical argument being used when people kept bringing up Metallica and Black Sabbath back in the days... Tongue
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Andy Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 13298 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2011 at 15:39
I didn't even read any of the posts, but I say NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Andy Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 13298 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2011 at 15:42
Originally posted by Daggor Daggor wrote:

Here's an 18 minute song if you're not convinced.

And one thing I hate that people assume: long songs = prog.  not true at all. the pop band MGMT released a 12 minute long song on their 2010 album. Is MGMT prog? Nope.


Edited by andyman1125 - February 28 2011 at 15:43
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The Pessimist View Drop Down
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 28 2011 at 18:25
Originally posted by andyman1125 andyman1125 wrote:

Originally posted by Daggor Daggor wrote:

Here's an 18 minute song if you're not convinced.

And one thing I hate that people assume: long songs = prog.  not true at all. the pop band MGMT released a 12 minute long song on their 2010 album. Is MGMT prog? Nope.


No, but to create an 18 minute song with interest requires putting progressive elements in.

My argument is that just one song isn't enough to get them on here. Otherwise we'd have to include about 70% of the bands in music history.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
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Gorloche View Drop Down
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Points: 34 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 01:42
I'm not so sure I would agree with you on the MGMT account; they feel at times like they are moving in a progressive direction. I feel, if they keep shifting the way they have been, we're soon going to have to retroactively reconsider some of their previous pieces as prog. As it stands, I think they definitely have progressive elements in their sound, but it is not the predominant or overarching theme of what they do.

On topic, I would say that Stratovarius is more proggy than not; their exclusion doesn't make much sense to me, given that they are widely considered, at least in the power metal community, as one of the proggiest bands of the type. However, I can see a bit (a bit) of logic in their continued exclusion, given that their progressive songs are not the main body of their albums like, say, Sonata Arctica or Kamelot or Blind Guardian.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 11:38
I have no clue about Stratovarius, but I want to thank Daggor for searching for other previous discussions about the band he suggested. Thumbs Up Very few suggesters do this.
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ferush View Drop Down
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Points: 363 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 18:42
Stratovarius is a mean good band, but definitively progressive.
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CCVP View Drop Down
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Points: 7971 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:16
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

Originally posted by andyman1125 andyman1125 wrote:

Originally posted by Daggor Daggor wrote:

Here's an 18 minute song if you're not convinced.

And one thing I hate that people assume: long songs = prog.  not true at all. the pop band MGMT released a 12 minute long song on their 2010 album. Is MGMT prog? Nope.


No, but to create an 18 minute song with interest requires putting progressive elements in.

My argument is that just one song isn't enough to get them on here. Otherwise we'd have to include about 70% of the bands in music history.


Then Venom is now diamonds prog.
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Andy Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 13298 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 01 2011 at 19:50
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

Originally posted by andyman1125 andyman1125 wrote:

Originally posted by Daggor Daggor wrote:

Here's an 18 minute song if you're not convinced.

And one thing I hate that people assume: long songs = prog.  not true at all. the pop band MGMT released a 12 minute long song on their 2010 album. Is MGMT prog? Nope.


No, but to create an 18 minute song with interest requires putting progressive elements in.

My argument is that just one song isn't enough to get them on here. Otherwise we'd have to include about 70% of the bands in music history.

Sure, but still, long songs =/= prog.
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