10cc

Joren:

Thank you for raising this topic.  As you know, I am probably the biggest proponent of 10CC.  From a purely practical standpoint, I have posited that, if Supertramp belongs on the site (which, of course, they may not), then so does 10CC, since they were contemporaneous, and both admittedly influenced by each other (and both of them influenced by The Beatles, of course).

However, my larger "argument" is that there is a subgenre of "prog" that is missing.  I do not consider Supertramp or Klaatu "art-rock" (the subgenre under which they currently appear).  Or, if they are, so is 10CC (and XTC, and a few others).  Here again, it is a matter of practicality: Klaatu admits The Beatles, 10CC and Supertramp as its three biggest influences - in that order.  So how can this site see fit to include Klaatu and Supertramp, but not 10CC?

I have suggested a new subgenre called "pop-prog," under which I would put the following: Supertramp, 10CC, Klaatu, XTC, Queen (since a great deal of their oeuvre is quasi-progressive), and others.  Or else put all of them under "art-rock," if that's the category that the administrators feel that Supertramp and Klaatu belong in.

It simply seems to me amazingly "limited" to have Supertramp and Klaatu on the site, but not 10CC, XTC, and other bands whose music may not be "prog" the way, say, "symphonic prog" is prog, but whose music is definitely "far left" of "commercial pop," and is definitely "progressive" in its own way.

Indeed, I would argue that, in some ways, 10CC and XTC are as "progressive" in their own way as, say, Jethro Tull, is in its way: i.e, JT's early period (through Minstrel or so) was certainly prog, but they then went largely "pop" (or at least "commercial") after that.  10CC and XTC have been "progressive" in their ways far more consistently, over just as many albums.

Finally, you state that "How Dare You" certainly seems "progressive" in a way, while the band's first eponymous LP does not.  I disagree.  Their first LP is a brilliant parody of 50s/60s music: to my mind, not only is the music "progressive" in many ways, but it takes a certain "progressive mindset" to parody something so well.  Yet even if we "disclaim" the first album, by the time they put out Sheet Music, they were flat-out "progressive," especially compared to almost every other "pop-rock" band of the time.

Indeed, even if we stick to the "definition" provided by the administrators of the site, 10CC and XTC (at the very least) both use almost every element, including textured keyboards, non-standard arrangements and instrumentation, non-standard time signatures (though admittedly not so often as others), and, without question, "literary" references.  Indeed, 10CC, XTC and Gentle Giant probably use more "literary references" than any other three prog bands in any subgenre.

So is 10CC prog?  Not by the definition of prog that includes Genesis.  But by a definition that sets "progressive" rock apart from "standard" or "commercial" pop-rock, an unequivocal "yes."

Peace.

Are there no people here (except for maani and myself) who like 10cc??

You can also say why you don't like them...

Come on, children, don't be shy

I feel kinda sad..

I have SO much to cach up to.. still haven't got any album of gentle giant, only 1 of yes, 2 of camel (mirage and snowgoose, LP 1st pressure and CD with bonus tracks, my cds are going away cause of the lp's) and go on like that..
BUT.. I'm getting crimson's in the court of.. WEE!

Radioactive Toy:

As much as I love 10CC, don't bother with them right now.  Stay with the "seminal" bands first: King Crimson, Pink Floyd, Genesis, Gentle Giant, Yes, Moody Blues, ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, et al.  Those are the "roots" of prog, so they should be your "foundation."

Hammar:

Supertramp and 10CC were contemporaries, and were (admittedly) influenced by each other.  Klaatu was admittedly influenced by both of them (as well as by ELO).  Thus, it seems strange to have Klaatu and Supertramp on the site, and not 10CC.  This is why the idea of a "pop-prog" category seemed to "natural" to me.  If not, then 10CC (and XTC) belong in "art-rock" as much as Supertramp does.

Peace.

Radioactive Toy wrote: Don't got any of:Moody Blues, Gentle Giant,  ELP, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generatortell me their essentional albums, there is much caching up to do..

So far, I have nothing by the Moody Blues or Gentle Giant, but as far as the others you mention are concerned:

ELP - Definitely go for 'Trilogy' 'Tarkus' and 'Brain Salad Surgery' - in fact, go for BSS first.

Jethro Tull - try to get 'Aqualung' first, followed by 'Passion Play', 'Thick As A Brick' & 'Heavy Horses'

Van De Graaf Generator - I only have one of their albums (so far), but it seems to be critically acknowledged as the place to start - 'Pawn Hearts'

Corbet

As a total GG beginner, what do you recommend?

Jim Garten wrote: Corbet As a total GG beginner, what do you recommend?

I've only got The Power And The Glory and it's GREAT! So I started with that one, maybe you'll like it too! Good luck, Jim!

(You should download the GG songs from www.progarchives.com of course, in the first place!)

Edited by Joren

I too only have The Power And The Glory and its very good.

I'll dissapoint some, but a freind brought over a few other Gentle Giant CDs and none other got to me.I don't know how to express it well but it was too much unmelodic and odd at times and going in too many different directions.A question of taste no doubt.

Sometimes it's like that scene from Mr. Holland's Opus. Glenn Holland (Richard Dreyfus) tells his wife about being given an album from John Coltraine. He said he listened to it an thought it was the worst thing he'd ever heard. Then he played it again and again and again. Finally, he "got it." Then he began to play it over and over and it became special to him, changing his life's course.

 

Radioactive Toy:

Don't listen to all these prog-rock wanna-be know-it-alls...

I am usually a strong believer in approaching a new group from earlier to later, since it gives a sense of the "progression" of the group.  Thus, I would normally tell you to get a group's first album first, and go from there. However, if I have to give you a couple or few of each, I would still keep them in chron order.  Thus:

Crimson: In the Court, Wake, Larks Tongues, Starless, Red

Floyd: Piper, Atom Heart, Meddle, Dark Side, Wish, Animals, Wall

Genesis: Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot, Selling England, The Lamb, Trick, W&W

Giant: Gentle Giant, Three Friends, In A Glass House

Yes: Time and a Word, Yes Album, Fragile, Close to the Edge

Moody Blues: Do them in strict chrono order.

ELP: ELP, Tarkus, Trilogy, Brain Salad

Tull: Thick as a Brick, Aqualung, Minstrel

Those would be my choices.  Happy listening!