Should marijuana be legalized? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 08:13

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

What would the size of the country have to do with anything? You seem to assuming order has to come from a central authority. Otherwise I'm not sure why the size matters.

It has a lotto do.

I studied (personally) cases of small communities in the Peruvian Andes, that self regulated without participation of the Government, but as soon as they grew the problems started, because the more people in a community, the more perceptions about how a society must work.

They all had to create at least a way to decide what is the best for the community to work...In this moment, the laws started to exist, and when they created laws, somebody to enforce those decisions, a Government was formed.

Iván

You saying that a government was created is doesn't show that all authority must come from a central government any more than saying the fact that marijuana is illegal proves that marijuana needs to be illegal.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Negoba

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 08:52

Pat, clearly you can see that larger communities are going to have more trouble maintaining social order bottom-up than smaller ones.

You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 08:58

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The fact that the substance you mentioned is illegal means that it hasn't been legalized, so your example in no way counters my statement.

So you believe that liquor with methyl alcohol that is 100% poisonous should be sold freely?

Or artificially distilled with sugar

That's criminal.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Now you bring up a case where apparently the government pushes the price of a good to 10x it's market price, and you wonder why a black market appears? That may as well be a prohibition.

You are obsessed with the Government. Confused

Pisco is produced by private persons purely with grapes and the Pisco Association (100% private) has explained that they can't sell it cheaper because it wouldn't cover their cost

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Where did you read this exactly? News to me.

Simply google it and you will find that there's illegal importation of European alcohol and that there are distilleries in USA.

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 08:59

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Read my reply to The T and you will see that we are talking about the Central Government, and not imposed, asked by the communities.

So please. read it all before replying.

Iván

Proletariat View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 09:59

I think the biggest argument against (or for) Ivan is not based on high minded concepts but on the simple facts that in the United States the trend is moving twards legalization and the areas that have already made Marijuana more accessable have not yet fallen into turmoil. However the United States is obviously not Ivans native Peru and the two countries dont really have that much in common. As Ivan has pointed out Peru has been through military dictatorships and civil unrest, like many Latin American countries and perhaps because of this, or Peruvian society, or Culture, or socioeconomic trends (none of which I know much about) Peru may not be in the same position as the USA and political comparisons or arguments based on life experiances in one location are a waste of time.

who hiccuped endlessly trying to giggle but wound up with a sob

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 10:25

Negoba wrote:

Pat, clearly you can see that larger communities are going to have more trouble maintaining social order bottom-up than smaller ones.

I see size as a problem for a centralized authority. I don't see see it in any other case though, no.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 10:28

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

The fact that the substance you mentioned is illegal means that it hasn't been legalized, so your example in no way counters my statement.

So you believe that liquor with methyl alcohol that is 100% poisonous should be sold freely?

Or artificially distilled with sugar

That's criminal.

Wait what? Why are people buying alcohol that is 100% poisonous?

Ivan wrote:

You are obsessed with the Government. Confused

Pisco is produced by private persons purely with grapes and the Pisco Association (100% private) has explained that they can't sell it cheaper because it wouldn't cover their cost

Didn't you just bring up the government? What is jacking the price up then?

Again, wait what? So how are there people selling it for less?

Ivan wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Where did you read this exactly? News to me.

Simply google it and you will find that there's illegal importation of European alcohol and that there are distilleries in USA.

Iván

Didn't find it.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 10:29

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Read my reply to The T and you will see that we are talking about the Central Government, and not imposed, asked by the communities.

So please. read it all before replying.

Iván

That's a funny comment from you. If I understood correctly the smaller governments of these localities asked the central government for absorption?

Again I don't really see the point.

Also again, why aren't we talking more about marijuana. More specifically, will you answer any of the questions I posed?

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 10:39

Proletariat wrote:

I think the biggest argument against (or for) Ivan is not based on high minded concepts but on the simple facts that in the United States the trend is moving twards legalization and the areas that have already made Marijuana more accessable have not yet fallen into turmoil.

My argument is that in my opinion Marihuana is absolutely dangerous, I seen some extreme cases, I'm more concerned about the health of the people than in the personal rights to get high.

Now, don't tell me I'm guessing, I also been young and in my surfer days I used to smoke good amounts of Pot, but I saw how some friends ended after starting with Pot, following with Cocaine and ending with PVC (The coccaine of those who can't pay the real one).

Of course the excuse will be that there are worst things that are legal, but that's not an excuse, having somnething hazardous doesn't imply we must add more dangers-

Proletariat wrote:

IHowever the United States is obviously not Ivans native Peru and the two countries dont really have that much in common. As Ivan has pointed out Peru has been through military dictatorships and civil unrest, like many Latin American countries and perhaps because of this, or Peruvian society, or Culture, or socioeconomic trends (none of which I know much about) Peru may not be in the same position as the USA and political comparisons or arguments based on life experiances in one location are a waste of time.

Please,. in Perú is almost legal, Cocaine costs 3 dollars the gram (I remember a WWF wrestler who came here and bought US$ 50 bucks of cocaine and was dead after the first 5 minutes because it was a the size of a small brick and 99% pure), and marihuana costs cents, the police is so inefficient and corrupt that you would have to be absolutely unlucky to be captured and don't have 5 bucks in the pocket to pay the policeman.

When I was a kid is was extremely dangerous to use drugs with a military Government and you could end in State Security, and the use of illegal drugs was extremely low compared with today, so hard rules work sometimes.

So don't tell me strong prohibitions don't work.

Iván

BTW: We are not a Banana Republic, we have Constitutional Presidents since 1980 and we got rid of terrorism (without help of anybody) in 1992, we have a lot in common (at least in Lima), but is true that in the near past we had more experiences than you had, but today, Lima is a little USA.

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 10:45

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So don't tell me strong prohibitions don't work.

Of course they do if you have no desire to maintain civil rights and act completely ignorant of the cost of the enforcement.

Are you really suggesting a police state to curb drug use though?

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 12:09

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Of course they do if you have no desire to maintain civil rights and act completely ignorant of the cost of the enforcement.

So civil rights consists to liberate every hazardous product?

Then why FDA?

Allow people to buy whatever they want without consulting a doctor...Why must you need a doctor to prescribe you a medicine, just sell people whatever they want.

Sorry, but IMO it's absurd

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Are you really suggesting a police state to curb drug use though?

No, I don't go to extremes, but there must be a middle point, keep it illegal, doin't send the consumer to prison, send him to rehab but send the dealer to prison.

Iván

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 12:34

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

.

Wait what? Why are people buying alcohol that is 100% poisonous?

Yes, because it's cheap, it won0't kill you in days, probably in weeks, maybe months.

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Didn't you just bring up the government? What is jacking the price up then?

The responsible producers, the product has a cost if it's done the rights way

Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Again, wait what? So how are there people selling it for less?

They sell a product with similar taste but distilled using dangerous substitutes to the real product, they accelerate the distillation with sugar and add Methyl alcohol to even make it faster and cheaper

But you don't have a problem, sell it freely, every person has the right to buy what they want even if it's going to kill them.

Iván

About Illegal liquor in USA:

http://www.digtriad.com/news/most_popular/article.aspx?storyid=142426&provider=top

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/12/22/876935/agents-seize-555-gallons-of-illegal.html

And if you search you will find more

There are even instructions to by-pass he law

http://makinghomemadewineandbeer.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.html

Padraic

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 12:46

Dude, making homemade wine and beer is not illegal, at least not in the state I live in, and I wager it's that way for most states in the USA. I don't know where on earth you got that notion.

Your first two links are about:

1.) liquor distribution/sales without a license, something different than simply making alcoholic drinks.

2.) hard liquor (essentially moonshine) - there are laws in certain states that prohibit this, but they don't apply to beer and wine.

Edited by Padraic - January 18 2011 at 12:49

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 12:59

Padraic wrote:

Dude, making homemade wine and beer is not illegal, at least not in the state I live in, and I wager it's that way for most states in the USA. I don't know where on earth you got that notion.

Your first two links are about:

1.) liquor distribution/sales without a license, something different than simply making alcoholic drinks.

2.) hard liquor (essentially moonshine) - there are laws in certain states that prohibit this, but they don't apply to beer and wine.

Did I ever said beer or wine?

The article has for title Homemade Beer and wine, but read it completely before you comment:

The rules specifically state that it is illegal to sell or manufacture Absinthe Alcohol in the United States. Although it is not illegal to drink or posses Absinthe in the U.S. So from those statements here is the deduction:

1. It is illegal to sell thujone containing Absinthe Liquor in the US for human consumption.

2. It is illegal for someone outside the US to sell thujone containing Absinthe to someone inside the US.
3. It is not illegal to purchase thujone containing Absinthe for personal use in the US.
4. It is not illegal to purchase thujone containing Absinthe for personal use outside the United States.

5. Thujone containing Absinthe Alcohol can be seized by US customs (if it is for human consumption).

(...)

Only online!!! It is illegal in the USA to buy, make or sell any kind of food or drink containing any level of Thujone. Modern Absinthe, or any spirit containing Thujone is therefore illegal in the USA. Mere possession isn’t. Several American makers offer a spirit similar to absinthe but without the wormwood. Unfortunately, the quality is poor and the taste is awful.The only option for American consumers is to order absinthe online and have it shipped as a gift and marked as “not for human consumption”. We at buy-absinthe-alcohol always place the marking“ not for human consumption” on each bottle sent to the USA.

http://makinghomemadewineandbeer.blogspot.com/2008_01_01_archive.html

Isn't that instruction on how to by-pass the law

I don't talk about beer or wine (even when wine distilled with sugar is extremely dangerous), but most sytes have restrictive laws to manufacture, transport and/or sell it.

BTW: Distribution las and licences are RESTRICTIONS to have control over what liquor is sold (also for taxes purpose)

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 18 2011 at 13:22

Padraic

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 13:09

No law is being by-passed. The seller of the absinthe is overseas, and it is not illegal to possess absinthe in the USA.

Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 13:16

So...Buying a product with a false label "Gift" and adding another label that says "Not for human consumption" even when you are going to use or sell it is not fraud?

You can't buy online Absinthe online, it's illegal, the person asking for that labels is participating in a fraud and giving false information to the authorities.

Please don't teach me laws.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 18 2011 at 13:19

Padraic

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 13:21

I don't know the law regarding Absinthe. Your link claimed it was illegal to manufacture or sell it in the US, and that it was not illegal to possess it. If that's true, I should be able to purchase it overseas. If it's not true, then the link misrepresented the law. Either way, I don't really care.

I don't even know what the point of this discussion is. It's a silly law. It should be repealed. Which is what the original discussion regarding marijuana was about.

I'm not trying to teach you anything. I only made a point about homemade beer and wine being legal in my state, because I know it to be true.

edit: I now see the part about not being able to buy, it explains the whole "gift" thing.

Edited by Padraic - January 18 2011 at 13:23

The T

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 13:22

Ivan, a conservative lawyer, will rarely see anything from a liberty point of view. The rule of law is everything and I really think the debate between Pat and him is pointless. He privileges safety, even if rights have to be curbed, decided by someone different than the person. He sees this as safer for society. Ivan seems to prefer a world with strict rules that assure safety, not actual safety, but the idea of safety. I don't think, Ivan, you could ever see things from a pure liberty point of view? It's ok. Just don't pretend people always see things your way. I'm sure you are also an advocate for some forms of censorship?

By the way, why is this obsession with "don't teach me law" exist?

Edited by The T - January 18 2011 at 13:24

Padraic

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 13:27

And now the discussion was even more pointless upon a quick wikipedia check:

In 2007, the Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB) effectively lifted the longstanding absinthe ban, and has since approved many brands for sale in the U.S. market. This was made possible partly through the TTB's clarification of the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA)thujone content regulations, which specify that finished food and beverages that contain Artemisia species must be thujone free.^[91] In this context, the TTB considers a product to be thujone-free if the thujone content is less than 10ppm (equal to 10 mg/kg).^[92]^[93]

Edited by Padraic - January 18 2011 at 13:28

Equality 7-2521 View Drop Down

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Posted: January 18 2011 at 14:03

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

So civil rights consists to liberate every hazardous product?

Then why FDA?

Allow people to buy whatever they want without consulting a doctor...Why must you need a doctor to prescribe you a medicine, just sell people whatever they want.

Sorry, but IMO it's absurd

That was an epic twist of words Ivan. It doesn't even vaguely resemble what I was saying. You're talking about 'strong' enforcement of a police state being able to curtail drug use. Yes, if you allow the police to trample of civil rights to enforce these laws, it becomes much easier to eliminate drug use. Your analysis is completely ignoring the cost imposed on people in this respect.

Ivan wrote:

No, I don't go to extremes, but there must be a middle point, keep it illegal, doin't send the consumer to prison, send him to rehab but send the dealer to prison.

Iván

That will not eliminate dealers. It just breeds more as I explained before. Simple economics. You're doing nothing to curtail demand. Really no efficient way is going to exist to curtail demand. You're completely ignoring the costs of enforcement. You're ignoring the very social costs your so fond of bringing up. You're equating usage with addiction.

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "

Poll Question: Should marijuana be legalized?
Poll Choice	Votes	Poll Statistics
Yes	105	[80.77%]
No	25	[19.23%]
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