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yarstruly View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Neo-Classical Metal?
    Posted: November 04 2004 at 12:26
Do you think that Neo-classical metal such as Yngwie Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore & Tony MacAlpine could be considered a sub-genre of prog?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2004 at 12:33
no , although moore's time odyssey has some prog elements

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2004 at 12:43
Surely simply rehashing old ideas is surely the antithesis of prog? Those metallers using classical ideas in a new and inventive way though, I would count as progressive.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2004 at 12:48

NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

What can you give as  example of tunes that meet the criteria for progressive rock? And a one-off like Malmsteen's Inspirations covering other bands prog rock and heavy rock tunes, is really a non-starter.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2004 at 13:04
Extended instrumental arrangements, with harmonies, time changes, etc. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2004 at 13:06
"Icarus Dream Suite" for example by Yngwie....I only have a second now...but I will give other examples later...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2004 at 15:26
I do like Malmsteen's stuff if I'm in the right mood, even the more commercial stuff. "Blue" actually has a nice melody too, which is a bonus.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2004 at 17:54

Neo-Classical? Derived and loosely converted Baroque, more like!

I like YJM's earlier material - although don't mention his first album to Barry Barlow, if you see him...

Much as I like some of the material - Icarus' Dream Suite is really good, extraordinary in its execution - but the compositional style is lifted almost directly from Vivaldi, using standard "classical" (broad term) techniques but simply transcribed to guitar instead of violin - few advanced techniques such as double-stopping or multi-string trilling are employed.

This is not to bring the guys down in what they do, I just hesitate when anyone compares what they did with "classical" music. And the keyboard parts nearly all suck - they're pale imitations of the guitar parts.

In terms of true classical guitar playing, however, there is very little in common - listen to any recording of, say Rodrigo.

The term neo-classical already refers to a period in music, which is another reason for finding the term unacceptable... (picky, me???? )

The main problem I have with considering this music as a sub-genre of prog is that it doesn't delve deeply enough into exploratory territory - the narrow circle is pretty much staked out in track 1 - you know exactly where the music will take you. Prog albums typically don't hold your hand in such a fashion - they brutally send you on a journey into unchartered territory and back again. Consider "In The Court of the Crimson King". You just wouldn't know by listening to "21st Century Schizoid Man" that the album would also take you through the delicacy of "I Talk to the Wind" to the ultimate symphonic grandeur of the title track. Now that's what I call a prog album!

To understand a bit more about what I mean by "exploratory", before I drive everyone mad with all these under-grad double quotes, check out Queen II. That is ostensibly a rock album, but ducks, dives and delves into prog territory many times, whilst sustaining that unmistakable "classical" feel that early Queen was steeped in.

In short, great music, just not prog!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2004 at 18:55

Originally posted by yarstruly yarstruly wrote:

Do you think that Neo-classical metal such as Yngwie Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore & Tony MacAlpine could be considered a sub-genre of prog?

NO

"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2004 at 20:18
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

To understand a bit more about what I mean by "exploratory", before I drive everyone mad with all these under-grad double quotes, check out Queen II. That is ostensibly a rock album, but ducks, dives and delves into prog territory many times, whilst sustaining that unmistakable "classical" feel that early Queen was steeped in.

In short, great music, just not prog!

Right-o   CERTainly. QII is their best.

 

 

Yngwie - NO

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2004 at 21:48
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Neo-Classical? Derived and loosely converted Baroque, more like!

I like YJM's earlier material - although don't mention his first album to Barry Barlow, if you see him...

Much as I like some of the material - Icarus' Dream Suite is really good, extraordinary in its execution - but the compositional style is lifted almost directly from Vivaldi, using standard "classical" (broad term) techniques but simply transcribed to guitar instead of violin - few advanced techniques such as double-stopping or multi-string trilling are employed.

This is not to bring the guys down in what they do, I just hesitate when anyone compares what they did with "classical" music. And the keyboard parts nearly all suck - they're pale imitations of the guitar parts.

In terms of true classical guitar playing, however, there is very little in common - listen to any recording of, say Rodrigo.

The term neo-classical already refers to a period in music, which is another reason for finding the term unacceptable... (picky, me???? )

The main problem I have with considering this music as a sub-genre of prog is that it doesn't delve deeply enough into exploratory territory - the narrow circle is pretty much staked out in track 1 - you know exactly where the music will take you. Prog albums typically don't hold your hand in such a fashion - they brutally send you on a journey into unchartered territory and back again. Consider "In The Court of the Crimson King". You just wouldn't know by listening to "21st Century Schizoid Man" that the album would also take you through the delicacy of "I Talk to the Wind" to the ultimate symphonic grandeur of the title track. Now that's what I call a prog album!

To understand a bit more about what I mean by "exploratory", before I drive everyone mad with all these under-grad double quotes, check out Queen II. That is ostensibly a rock album, but ducks, dives and delves into prog territory many times, whilst sustaining that unmistakable "classical" feel that early Queen was steeped in.

In short, great music, just not prog!

Great response Cert -- insightful, and spot on!Clap

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2004 at 22:25

I'll totally agree with everyone who says Yngwie and his ilk don't make progressive music.  For me, prog is a mixture of skilled musicianship and creative ideas while Yngwie only possesses the former really.

If you're looking for great progressive metal, listen to a Japanese 3 piece called Sigh.  Fantastic Iron Maidenish guitar riffs, black metal vocals and a keyboardist who uses a Fender Rhodes, moog, Yamaha string machine, clavinet and all sorts of other instruments.

Prog is the new punk, becuase kids who shop at Hot Topic don't know Bill Bruford is God.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2004 at 08:50
If Yngwie where prog (and more interested in creating music than bragging about his girlfriends likenss to Cindy Crawford) he would sound like Symphony X, which would be considered a prog neo classical metal band. Some of Yngwies earlier stuff is OK for beerbackground, but he lost his originality around his third album, sadly... There is more to music than shredding arpeggios, and please, Yngvwie playing blues really makes med sad...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2004 at 19:21
Originally posted by yarstruly yarstruly wrote:

Do you think that Neo-classical metal such as Yngwie Malmsteen, Vinnie Moore & Tony MacAlpine could be considered a sub-genre of prog?
No, I really don't think so. But that doesn't mean neo classical metal isn't stupendous music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 08 2004 at 21:04

Vinnie Moore is one of the most underrated guitar hero!

His style is somewhere between Satriani and Malmsteen: he is very symphonic!

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 15 2004 at 15:30
I take no offense to any replies...i wasn't sure what others thought....
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