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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: The 432 hz effect.. please help!
    Posted: July 16 2015 at 07:13
PS Beethoven. If we're on nit-picky correctness, the standards for orchestral timing changed in the 19th century. Beethoven used to be played a lot faster. ;-)

Seriously, was this thread a good idea ???? 

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2015 at 07:10
As a sax player, one of the things you get taught is "You play in tune. The sax doesn't". 
And this is quite correct. Most saxes will get near to a note, but you basically have to adjust the pitch yourself to fine tune it. This comes with practice. 

So. If we assume that I have to play in *perfect* pitch, I go on stage (with a directional microphone and oscilloscope or a digital tuner) and take extra care with every single note. The audience, who would all have directional microphones and oscilloscopes, would obviously be paying special attention. 

Of course, we'd have to take atmospheric pressure into account, tuning, say, the drum kit up and down for difference in sea level. And better not use Gibson guitars, because, Fact Fans, the 24 3/4 scale on most Gibsons is fretted up incorrectly, so you get minor intonation errors. 

I'd expect nothing less than my picky fans to play our music on vinyl, heaven forfend that their record deck didn't revolve at precisely 33.333 recurring RPM, otherwise that'd put the pitch out, too. 



Edited by Davesax1965 - July 16 2015 at 07:14

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Davesax1965 View Drop Down
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Points: 2839 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2015 at 11:25
432 / 440hz argument is a non argument. Most people THINK they can hear a difference, they can't. It's psychological. 

Saxes used to be sold as "high pitch / low pitch" to cope with this. Most "high pitch" saxes became unsaleable as people worried that they wouldn't play in tune with other low pitch saxes. 

In the rare case that anyone could tell the difference... what you do is either slightly slacken your jaw OR move the mouthpiece back a few millimetres. Problem - non problem, even - solved. 

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someone_else View Drop Down
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Points: 24710 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2015 at 04:49
The 432 Hz sounds muffled. There has obviously been done something with it, even during recording they were turning the buttons, I think. The 440 Hz, on the other hand, sounds a bit shrill. I think I'd go for 438 Hz, based on these samples.
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Cailyn View Drop Down
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Points: 120 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2015 at 00:28
Clearly some seriously whacked conspiracy theory.  I am certain that no empirical double-blind study exists that validates even a tiny fraction of this nonsense.  Beethoven is heavenly at 432 or 440...
http://www.cailynmusic.com
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2015 at 19:35
what in the living f**k?  Confused
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JessicaRegan View Drop Down
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Points: 4 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2015 at 07:53
money for the greedy..... = 440z
peace = 432 hz
to refine
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JessicaRegan View Drop Down
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Points: 4 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2015 at 07:52
Just thought I would mention that I also have had trouble getting the word out there re: 432hz...if I was in a movie and had a really low top on I would swear that this topic is being watched and monitored..... It would also be a really good plot line to include that clearly the Government whomever that may be does not want this information out there.....because it causes less stress and peace....therefore no chaos and money for the greedy. :)
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JessicaRegan View Drop Down
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Points: 4 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2015 at 07:46
Facebook : Jessica Regan Newcastle NSW Australia :)
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Points: 4 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2015 at 07:45
I am so glad to see you have taken notice of 432hz....within 13 years hopefully we will be listening to it on the Wireless :)
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twseel View Drop Down
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Points: 22767 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2013 at 11:47
Listen to this:
And than to this:
(It might help to only hear the intro on the first link.)
There is definitely a difference here. 
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2013 at 18:19
^ Welcome aboard. Wink
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Points: 1 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 26 2013 at 11:30
Check out www.pentagonalskies.com. It's a full-length rock opera recorded completely with A=432Hz tuning.  You can listen to and read along with the entire production online (free of charge).  Definitely worth the time!
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Points: 1601 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2011 at 13:46
This really doesn't make any sense.  A pitch out of context affects you no differently than other pitches (other than really high or really low), its intervals that elicit the tension/dissonance/consonance.  It's pretty easy for something to "seem" more relaxing when someone says "these are often more relaxing, listen to it."  Yeah the other day when playing fretless I did notice how calm everybody got when I slid down a little below the fret.......please.

Not to mention, have fun if you're playing with any real ( I say real instead of analog because I hate digital equipment) keyboards.  I don't know about you, but tuning my Hammonds isn't my favorite thing to do.

AND WOW TO COMMENTS ABOUT REMASTERS BEING AT A DIFFERENT SPEED!!!  That difference in sound has nothing to do with the overall pitch (yes it is slightly altered) and has to do with the tone being different due to the entire speed of the album being altered (to achieve the different pitch).  For example, the drums are going to sound much different (see the mixes of Turn of a Friendly Card for an example).  Do people think?  If you're favorite song had been played a half step down from the beginning you wouldn't feel any differently about it.


Edited by himtroy - March 22 2011 at 13:52
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2011 at 10:38
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:



Your description of compression is correct (other than the use of the term clipping - you don't want anything to clip or you will get unwanted distortion),
 
It may be that the distortion is wanted... Tongue
 
Of course, with digital recording, clipping does result in unwanted, or at least, very unpleasant distortion.
 
In analogue systems, the distortion created by clipping can add warmth or excitement, depending on which frequencies are causing the clipping.
 
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

There's no difference - it's all relative. Why not use 441Hz, or 421Hz, or 445Hz? As long as the whole piece is in tune, I couldn't care less.
 
Of course there's a difference - if the key pitch is different, the entire piece will sound different and have a different "flavour". This is something that J. S. Bach explored when he wrote the 48 preludes and fugues.
 
Recently, I heard a remaster of Led Zep II on the Quiex label, and hated it. I ran it back to back with my first pressing on the same system, to prove that it wasn't simply the equipment making it sound unfamiliar, and it turned out that it had been remastered at a slightly different speed, which raised the pitch by nearly a semitone.
 
This is the equivalent of making A > than whatever frequency was originally used, so the difference is entirely tangible.
 
Originally posted by Deathrabbit Deathrabbit wrote:

I was gonna post something here relevant and interesting, but then I noticed the thread was flame warDead
 
I don't see any flaming Confused
Yes, and no.
 
It is pretey clear just by listening that different intervals have more porfound effects than different fixed pitches. And THIS is actually what Bach was taking advantage of.
 
What I mean was, the way Bach tuned his keyboard, B-C wouldn't have been the same as C-Db, nor C-E the same as Eb-G. This actually gave the keys more distinguasable colors, something we don't have in equal temperament.
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Musicgeek412 View Drop Down
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 22 2011 at 10:23
Originally posted by friso friso wrote:

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:



Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:


Originally posted by Atomicunderware Atomicunderware wrote:

Unfortunately I think for this to really have any impact the instruments would need to be tuned using 432Hz prior to them being tracked. Interesting concept though, I had never heard of this before, I just took 440Hz for granted...
Not quite sure what modern mastering techniques have to do with the discussion, but there you go...
If you bothered to read my post, I was talking about how gullible some of the members of PA are, and how it kinda throws out the window the idea that all "proggers" are intellectuals.My idea of an intellectual is not that of someone who just reads any random article written with a bunch of unfounded garbage and just believes it because they're told it's true.

I would say that Friso has proven that he is not gullible in this sense - he is actually performing a test on these forums to find out if what he has read is true or false, instead of taking it on faith. That seems like the definition of science / verifying what he's heard to me.
I tried listening to both and didn't notice any huge difference between the two at all to be honest - I noticed a feel of slight more calm listening to the 432 one but I'm not sure if that's because my brain expected me to or not. I recommend finding a way to test this effect without letting people know what it is your testing, so you that this effect is avoided. Also, testing it in different orders (432 first/440 after) etc. with different people.



I totally agree! There are way better listening-test available. The fact you hear the difference in pitch makes it however hard to hide which sample is heard.

Why 432 Hz? Because it has been used for more then two thousand years all over the world. Furthermore I find it interesting that people think ancient civilizations would go threw so much as building complete concrete temples out of amazingly heavy rock to build a sound-resonating system that has no use at all. Why always see ancient people ;ole Egyptians as imbeciles? Let's try to find out if they were perhaps right! That's what this experiment is about.

Furthermore I don't thing it has anything to do with figures. The Hz is based on the second and the second is a human invention that has no logical or important length in physics.

And finally... there's a small range in the electro magnetic radiation we call 'light', to witch we respond best. There are a certain amounts of smell's we can decipher best. Why not a certain frequency for sound?
 
 
From what I have I read about tuning pitches in Europe, it was anything BUT one fixed pitch. (such as 432) I don't know about around the rest of the world, but it isn't true until you can prove it, and good luck proving what pitch people in Tibet (or what have you) were using 2000 years ago.
 


Edited by Musicgeek412 - March 22 2011 at 10:27
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Points: 3 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 31 2010 at 13:37
Originally posted by friso friso wrote:

Originally posted by TheGazzardian TheGazzardian wrote:



Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:


Originally posted by Atomicunderware Atomicunderware wrote:

Unfortunately I think for this to really have any impact the instruments would need to be tuned using 432Hz prior to them being tracked. Interesting concept though, I had never heard of this before, I just took 440Hz for granted...
Not quite sure what modern mastering techniques have to do with the discussion, but there you go...
If you bothered to read my post, I was talking about how gullible some of the members of PA are, and how it kinda throws out the window the idea that all "proggers" are intellectuals.My idea of an intellectual is not that of someone who just reads any random article written with a bunch of unfounded garbage and just believes it because they're told it's true.

I would say that Friso has proven that he is not gullible in this sense - he is actually performing a test on these forums to find out if what he has read is true or false, instead of taking it on faith. That seems like the definition of science / verifying what he's heard to me.
I tried listening to both and didn't notice any huge difference between the two at all to be honest - I noticed a feel of slight more calm listening to the 432 one but I'm not sure if that's because my brain expected me to or not. I recommend finding a way to test this effect without letting people know what it is your testing, so you that this effect is avoided. Also, testing it in different orders (432 first/440 after) etc. with different people.



I totally agree! There are way better listening-test available. The fact you hear the difference in pitch makes it however hard to hide which sample is heard.

Why 432 Hz? Because it has been used for more then two thousand years all over the world. Furthermore I find it interesting that people think ancient civilizations would go threw so much as building complete concrete temples out of amazingly heavy rock to build a sound-resonating system that has no use at all. Why always see ancient people ;ole Egyptians as imbeciles? Let's try to find out if they were perhaps right! That's what this experiment is about.

Furthermore I don't thing it has anything to do with figures. The Hz is based on the second and the second is a human invention that has no logical or important length in physics.

And finally... there's a small range in the electro magnetic radiation we call 'light', to witch we respond best. There are a certain amounts of smell's we can decipher best. Why not a certain frequency for sound?
to the bolded, seriously, the second is an arbitrary unit of measure but that doesnt mean you can just deny the whole frequency thing. if you used a different unit of measure the frequency wouldnt dissappear it would just be another arbitrary number describing the same phenomena. sounds like a relativity argument to me and with relativity everyones right Tongue
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mono View Drop Down
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Points: 652 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 12 2010 at 05:28
Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:

 
You're telling me, m8........TV stations do it all the time. REALLY p*sses me off when you're watching a programme, and then the ads come on at full blast.....you have to turn them down.....then the programme comes back on and you can't hear it, so you have to turn it back up again. Sorta gets on yer tits when you have to do it 30 times per night. Why cant they just set the limiter at -16Db and adjust the goddam master volume on the mixer????????????????????
 
Angry


Because the only limitations ads have on their audio is a dynamic limiation. So they compress like animals so that you HEAR THE PUBLICITY VERY WELL.
When you buy a publicity spot and deliver your ad, the TV/Radio station is NOT allowed to tweek your volume down, unless it doesn't comply with the dynamics allowed (clipping etc...).

TV Programs (in general) on the other hand seek a better dynamic (a whole show generally has more dynamic changes than a 30sec ad), so the general volume is lower.


Edited by mono - July 12 2010 at 05:29
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 05:12
Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

There's no difference - it's all relative. Why not use 441Hz, or 421Hz, or 445Hz? As long as the whole piece is in tune, I couldn't care less.
 
Exactly.......and you're ALWAYS going to have trouble locating a tuning-fork @ 432hz, anyway......not many people make them.



I won't bother locating any tuning-fork, since my amps had tuners built in since about 1995. Wink And for most of them you can adjust the reference pitch to 432Hz, if you want to. Most digital keyboards also allow for micro-tuning.

Originally posted by Rabid Rabid wrote:


 
But if you want to try a REAL experiment, have your keyboard player tune at 440hz, bassist tune at 257hz,
guitarist tune at 569hz and singer sing at 16hz (slip him some Mandrax), and spend the evening seeing how many beer-cans you can succesfully dodge. Your singer might take a few hits, but I bet he'll be the most 'relaxed'.


Well put, but besides the point of the thread.Wink
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Rabid View Drop Down
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Points: 512 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2010 at 05:10
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:

Quote Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski


But having made my own recordings and getting them to sound fairly loud (not as smashed as the most smashed of today's stuff, but still pretty loud), I understand it's a process that starts from playing tightly, tracking at appropriate levels, getting the frequency balance in the mix right, using clipping to tame transients on drum tracks, and further using clipping to tame transients to keep stuff out of the red zone, and that compression is only really used for shaping the attack, release, sustain or general tonality of an element in the mix and not as some kind of loudness booster.


Your description of compression is correct (other than the use of the term clipping - you don't want anything to clip or you will get unwanted distortion), but one of the most important elements in the mastering processing chain is Limiting, which is a specialized compressor designed to maximize the loudness of the track. This is used in all modern masters to bring it up to broadcast levels consistent with other releases, and is what is being misused in the aforementioned loudness war.
 
You're telling me, m8........TV stations do it all the time. REALLY p*sses me off when you're watching a programme, and then the ads come on at full blast.....you have to turn them down.....then the programme comes back on and you can't hear it, so you have to turn it back up again. Sorta gets on yer tits when you have to do it 30 times per night. Why cant they just set the limiter at -16Db and adjust the goddam master volume on the mixer????????????????????
 
Angry
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