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Alitare 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
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Points: 3595
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 Posted: July 12 2010 at 07:35 |
 Textbook wrote:
Let's talk about Dragonforce. |
If Dragonforce are progressive, I need to stop listening to music and go join the peace corps. Naw, that's real mean. Dragonforce just happen to be one of those bands that gets my undying hatred, along with Evanescence, HIM, Children of Bodom, Taylor Swift, and Genesis. (Can you spot the odd one out?)
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Chris S
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Joined: June 09 2004
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Points: 7028
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 07:41 |
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^ Take Bjork from your listening list. How would you define her music?
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<font color=Brown>Music - The Sound Librarian
...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR]
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 07:50 |
Textbook wrote:
Let's talk about Dragonforce. |
okay.
You start.
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What?
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 08:20 |
Chris S wrote:
^ Take Bjork from your listening list. How would you define her music? |
It depends on her album, really. Her debut was particularly steeped in dance music, but Homogenic and Vespertine are much harder for me to categorize. I haven't listened to even half of her total output, myself. Uhm.....well, I see her using electronica, ambient, and dance instrumentation, paired with her voice, to make non-dance, non-ambient, and non-electronica... So, my brain says "post-electronica".
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
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Points: 512
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 11:23 |
rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Rabid wrote:
Dunno......I've never really seen a motif running thru any of Genesis's albums (except 'the Lamb Lies Down').......I've always just regarded it as music. |
There's a motif reinforced in many parts of SEBTP and is first introduced in Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, not surprisingly where Gabriel goes "Selling England by the Pound". It is repeated right at the end of Cinema Show, done so subtly that you'd not notice unless you paid complete attention and absorbed the album deeply. They were masters!
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I think anyone would notice that its so obvious......but is that it? That's all? I'm a bit disappointed with that answer.
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I only answered that part of the question and not really what all makes SEBTP prog. It seems he didn't pick it up at least, because he claims there are no motifs in their music save Lamb. Thematic reinforcement is in general a feature of classic prog and is a pervasive element in Genesis's music as well.
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No. I did'nt claim there was no motifs in any of Genesis's albums. I claimed that I've never really noticed any.
What do you mean by 'motif'? In the UK, we generally regard the term 'motif' to mean an underlying theme.
Do you actually mean 'a musical refrain', by any chance? 
Btw....I was absorbing SEBTP deeply on its release day, 1973.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 11:27 |
Rabid wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Rabid wrote:
Dunno......I've never really seen a motif running thru any of Genesis's albums (except 'the Lamb Lies Down').......I've always just regarded it as music. |
There's a motif reinforced in many parts of SEBTP and is first introduced in Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, not surprisingly where Gabriel goes "Selling England by the Pound". It is repeated right at the end of Cinema Show, done so subtly that you'd not notice unless you paid complete attention and absorbed the album deeply. They were masters!
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I think anyone would notice that its so obvious......but is that it? That's all? I'm a bit disappointed with that answer.
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I only answered that part of the question and not really what all makes SEBTP prog. It seems he didn't pick it up at least, because he claims there are no motifs in their music save Lamb. Thematic reinforcement is in general a feature of classic prog and is a pervasive element in Genesis's music as well.
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No. I did'nt claim there was no motifs in any of Genesis's albums. I claimed that I've never really noticed any.
What do you mean by 'motif'? In the UK, we generally regard the term 'motif' to mean an underlying theme.
Do you actually mean 'a musical refrain', by any chance?
Btw....I was absorbing SEBTP deeply on its release day, 1973.
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I meant an underlying theme and in most of their (Genesis) prog output, an underlying theme is evident. Upto Lamb for sure, anyway, not so sure about the next two. They are demonstrably NOT just songs. A riff, to refer back to Rush, cannot be construed to be an underlying theme especially because its function in Rush's case is seen not to be any different from what it would serve in a hard rock song.
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 11:57 |
rogerthat wrote:
Rabid wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Rabid wrote:
Dunno......I've never really seen a motif running thru any of Genesis's albums (except 'the Lamb Lies Down').......I've always just regarded it as music. |
There's a motif reinforced in many parts of SEBTP and is first introduced in Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, not surprisingly where Gabriel goes "Selling England by the Pound". It is repeated right at the end of Cinema Show, done so subtly that you'd not notice unless you paid complete attention and absorbed the album deeply. They were masters!
|
I think anyone would notice that its so obvious......but is that it? That's all? I'm a bit disappointed with that answer.
|
I only answered that part of the question and not really what all makes SEBTP prog. It seems he didn't pick it up at least, because he claims there are no motifs in their music save Lamb. Thematic reinforcement is in general a feature of classic prog and is a pervasive element in Genesis's music as well.
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No. I did'nt claim there was no motifs in any of Genesis's albums. I claimed that I've never really noticed any.
What do you mean by 'motif'? In the UK, we generally regard the term 'motif' to mean an underlying theme.
Do you actually mean 'a musical refrain', by any chance?
Btw....I was absorbing SEBTP deeply on its release day, 1973.
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I meant an underlying theme and in most of their (Genesis) prog output, an underlying theme is evident. Upto Lamb for sure, anyway, not so sure about the next two. They are demonstrably NOT just songs. A riff, to refer back to Rush, cannot be construed to be an underlying theme especially because its function in Rush's case is seen not to be any different from what it would serve in a hard rock song.
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I'm sure that most artists don't see their music as a set of 'motifs'. They see them as pieces of music, to be played and listened to. Ok ,Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Aisle of Plenty contain the same piece of music. So, if you've got a riff and repeat it, then thats an underlying theme.......but if you don't repeat it, its not an underlying theme. So how can Close to the Edge have an underlying theme? It contains no repeated riffs.
So what is the underlying theme that binds Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Aisle of Plenty together, other than the fact that they both contain the same music?
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20030
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:02 |
Rabid wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Rabid wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Snow Dog wrote:
rogerthat wrote:
Rabid wrote:
Dunno......I've never really seen a motif running thru any of Genesis's albums (except 'the Lamb Lies Down').......I've always just regarded it as music. |
There's a motif reinforced in many parts of SEBTP and is first introduced in Dancing with the Moonlit Knight, not surprisingly where Gabriel goes "Selling England by the Pound". It is repeated right at the end of Cinema Show, done so subtly that you'd not notice unless you paid complete attention and absorbed the album deeply. They were masters!
|
I think anyone would notice that its so obvious......but is that it? That's all? I'm a bit disappointed with that answer.
|
I only answered that part of the question and not really what all makes SEBTP prog. It seems he didn't pick it up at least, because he claims there are no motifs in their music save Lamb. Thematic reinforcement is in general a feature of classic prog and is a pervasive element in Genesis's music as well.
|
No. I did'nt claim there was no motifs in any of Genesis's albums. I claimed that I've never really noticed any.
What do you mean by 'motif'? In the UK, we generally regard the term 'motif' to mean an underlying theme.
Do you actually mean 'a musical refrain', by any chance?
Btw....I was absorbing SEBTP deeply on its release day, 1973.
|
I meant an underlying theme and in most of their (Genesis) prog output, an underlying theme is evident. Upto Lamb for sure, anyway, not so sure about the next two. They are demonstrably NOT just songs. A riff, to refer back to Rush, cannot be construed to be an underlying theme especially because its function in Rush's case is seen not to be any different from what it would serve in a hard rock song.
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I'm sure that most artists don't see their music as a set of 'motifs'. They see them as pieces of music, to be played and listened to. Ok ,Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Aisle of Plenty contain the same piece of music. So, if you've got a riff and repeat it, then thats an underlying theme.......but if you don't repeat it, its not an underlying theme. So how can Close to the Edge have an underlying theme? It contains no repeated riffs.
So what is the underlying theme that binds Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Aisle of Plenty together, other than the fact that they both contain the same music?
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Close To The Edge contains no repeated riffs? You clearly haven't listened to it properly. The guitar riff which comes in after the chaotic intro is repeated in the final section.
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:14 |
Hey, don't quote my quotes in red, please. People might think I posted that.
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:15 |
Rabid wrote:
I'm sure that most artists don't see their music as a set of 'motifs'. They see them as pieces of music, to be played and listened to. Ok ,Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Aisle of Plenty contain the same piece of music. So, if you've got a riff and repeat it, then thats an underlying theme.......but if you don't repeat it, its not an underlying theme. So how can Close to the Edge have an underlying theme? It contains no repeated riffs.
So what is the underlying theme that binds Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Aisle of Plenty together, other than the fact that they both contain the same music?
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CTTE has the same chorus and the same guitar figure used several times in the song  I already mentioned this. Aisle of Plenty is not even a proper comparison, I have already mentioned Dancing...and Cinema Show, that is the perfect example.
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:34 |
rogerthat wrote:
Rabid wrote:
I'm sure that most artists don't see their music as a set of 'motifs'. They see them as pieces of music, to be played and listened to. Ok ,Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Aisle of Plenty contain the same piece of music. So, if you've got a riff and repeat it, then thats an underlying theme.......but if you don't repeat it, its not an underlying theme. So how can Close to the Edge have an underlying theme? It contains no repeated riffs.
So what is the underlying theme that binds Dancing with the Moonlit Knight and Aisle of Plenty together, other than the fact that they both contain the same music?
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CTTE has the same chorus and the same guitar figure used several times in the song I already mentioned this. Aisle of Plenty is not even a proper comparison, I have already mentioned Dancing...and Cinema Show, that is the perfect example.
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Aisle of Plenty is the perfect example. It repeats the acoustic guitar section from Dancing with the Moonlit Knight as the album fades out.
I wouldn't call it an underlying theme to the album, tho. Its just a repeated section of music. Zappa used to do it all the time.
Do you see an underlying theme in Zappa's music?
(Good luck with this !!  ).
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Snow Dog
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2005
Location: Caerdydd
Status: Offline
Points: 32995
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:37 |
Rabid wrote:
Hey, don't quote my quotes in red, please. People might think I posted that.
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No they won't.
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Alitare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 08 2008
Location: New York
Status: Offline
Points: 3595
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:38 |
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Zappa's underlying theme was deconstruction, and anti-censorship, right? Well, except for all that classy jazz fusion stuff.
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:47 |
Snow Dog wrote:
Rabid wrote:
Hey, don't quote my quotes in red, please. People might think I posted that.
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No they won't. |
Yes, they will
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:49 |
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They won't Dave.
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What?
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 20030
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 12:55 |
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It's hard to work out who posted it. Whoever did, it's wrong.
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Rabid
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 20 2008
Location: Bridge of Knows
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 13:13 |
No worries !!
It's hard enough being understood fully by everyone on PA......so many different nationalities.
Don't care to offend anyone by 'appearing' to write in an 'enraged' fashion
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"...the thing IS, to put a motor in yourself..."
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17863
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 13:13 |
Alitare wrote:
Zappa's underlying theme was deconstruction, and anti-censorship, right? Well, except for all that classy jazz fusion stuff. |
Zappa was "classy jazz fusion"??
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 13:16 |
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Anyway, the final section of CTTE contains repeated refrains from each of the three previous sections (which are in themselves separate songs that segue together). I wouldn't actually call this an underlying theme, but it is a convenient way of resolving the three songs into a cohesive suite.
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: July 12 2010 at 13:23 |
Three years ago (give or take a week or two):
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What?
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