The Arrogant Proggie

Still prog isn't the most complicated music classical music enthusiasts would look at something like Yes or Jazz Fusion and say "whats this crap, theyre just trying to be Stravinsky" etc.

So really bashing other peoples music is something everybody does i have friends who love punk who are always bashing my friends who like metal, so too break up the argument i mention prog...Every genres common enemy!

There are many great vocalists who have fallen into the virus arms of the industry. It just so happens they are part of the Pop world. Like Terry Kath of Chicago. Taken seriously by Jimi Hendrix and a host of other superb guitarists....but looked down on by many to be just an average player in a pop band ,,,and for many years. By the time Chicago 8 was released, Kath was like a fine wine.....but, the band was pure pop sugar. I really wish Terry Kath had played all the guitar parts on the first 4 Billy Cobham titles.  
I am not understanding your concept on the following:..".Catchier melodies in pop, especially if producers and other non-musical professionals get involved".  It's such a debate regarding all different aspects to the experience itself. Are catchier melodies created by producers and non-musical professionals the ones that sound insulting? "Star Rockets in Flight....Afternoon Delight?  Or did the band write this on their own? There is an old trick used. Something called practices. It's when a non-musical idiot runs his hand up and down the piano searching for the perfect candy coated melody. A far cry from when Elton John wrote pop songs like "Don't Let The Sun Shine Down on Me" or "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road"....where if you listen closely, it's a bit Gary Brooker regarding the vocal style and chord structure. But what specifically is the definition of catchier? "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" is very catchy in a unique way while "Star Rockets In Flight" is taylor made, contrived, and elementary to the world of Pop Music.

Prog was not suppose to be listened to mainly by snobs. This is a macho or muscular mentality based on a musical race to see who is the best on their instrument. That best concept is based around who is the most technical. John McLaughlin is very technical...however is style of improv is all about being a universal player. Which one of the most important aspects is to slow down ....playing a piece of music that is truly melodic that does not impress the snobs.....but in reality is more difficult to play and perform then any Al Dimeloa piece. There are too many departments taken apart in music regarding analogy and many snobs miss the point of the overall composition. All the technique applies when you study an instrument however, in the end it's all about the music that challenges the musician. The developing techniques are to bring the musician to a level of a writer.    

I dislike Michael Jackson's songs - but that is not the same as saying he's a poor songwriter. Far from it - he wrote songs that a lot of people enjoyed or connected with in some way. There's probably a reason beyond the videos that his albums sold in such huge quantities - even if I don't know what it is.

 

Whatever, a poor songwriter does not sell vast quantites of songs that people sing along with - to state the bleeding obvious. If you can't hum it, it's not a very good song (which is different to saying it's not good music).

 

Obviously, with popular music, a large proportion of what sells is product - and, while there are certainly some blatant attempts to polish stuff that allegedly can't be polished, another thing that sells is "attitude" or "personality", and Jackson has tons of both in everything he's ever put out.

 

Personal taste has to take a back seat here - there's no doubt that he puts across what he intends to put across, and that is a hallmark of a great artist.

 

Can't stand it myself, of course...

Ok, cancel Michael Jackson and replace him with Madonna, (another great dancer and performer), or choose one between The Blue, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera or stuff like this. An exception is Shakira who, before going into commercial made some good pop-rock with interesting lyrics.

What I mean is that in general there's few musical quality in products created to be consued and forgotten after few months. That's probably the reason why there are no pop songs 30 minutes long. There's no sense in spending a lot of effort for something that will remain in your mind less time than its duration.

It's not that people shouldn't have fun. If one likes sweating in a disco with techno or house pumped at high volume, free to do it. But please don't compare what comes from gonads with what comes from heart or brain. 

Finally, about MJ's songwriting, isn't Smooth Criminal poor enough, just as example?

 

And in order to be arrogant and make this post harder and harder, I include U2 and Sting solo works in my black list: two example of non-dancing  artists. And what about Phil Collins?

During the 80s I loved Marillion (not  complex as Magma) and I was into the Blues (less complex than everything else). I went into new age, thanks to Kitaro, Yanni and Vangelis. I didn't have any need to consume MTV stuff.  One exception was Cindy Lauper. She was something different.

I've been at a MJ live performance in 1990 (more or less). It was like watching a long video. Cold and distant. One of the most boring live performances I've ever seen.  

Joshua Tree is a good album, also Face Value is good .

What I mean is that I hated the 80s and almost everything they brought. I hated the video-music that was more video than music. I hated the media driven celebration of some artists. I hated how they tried to change the people's tastes to what the majors were trying to sell. Of course there was also something good sometimes. But the 80s made me arrogant. 

Last,. I was into Marillion but I have rated "Script" with two stars only.

The Blue... I've been at one of their last performances before they disbanded. They made me the same effect of MJ. Good singers, excellent dancers (maybe, I don't have the skill to comment their dancing) but watching them on TV is exactly the same.

I don't watch to videos, and I can't say if Britney has a personality or not. This is not my pot and I don't care if she writes or performs only. The meaning of my first reply was only that I am arrogant about music with a meaning and music just for fun or dancing. It's the same when we speak of early Clannad or Dubliners. I like the first, less the second.

The Beatles have a concept album like Abbey Road, the Who have Tommy. Not only 3 minutes songs. In the 60s the duration of a song was limited by the size of a single 45rpm. Speaking of song's length has few sense before the 70s.

Black and White you are right. I'm not so black and white. That's why I say that Face Value is a good album, unfortunately the only decent thing done by Phil Collins out of Genesis (IMO).

80s wasn't so black and white as well. I can't stand with Duran or Spandau, but I liked and I still like many of the artists mentioned by you. In particular Ultravox, Japan and Human League. If I'm not wrong Japan were feauring David Sylvian...

About Script, my rating wasn't an example of arrogance. Was just to say that being into an artist doesn't mean appreciate everything they do without conditions. I like that album but I can't say it's an absolute masterpiece. It contains one of the better songs ever written by them, Forgotten Sons, but Chelsea Monday, the title track and The Web are everything but masterpieces (my personal opinion).

The influence of media? Also Woody Guthrie was helped by a radio to sell his first songs. The problem is when ALL the media work in a single direction. My beloved rock dynosaurus suddenly disappeared from radios and TVs to make room to dubbed dancers. Do you remember Milli Vanilli or Den Harrow? 

Why the 80s sound was so standardized? Why artists like Camel and Rick Wright tried to modify their sound by using the fairlight? 

About the package, you can buy it or not. I'm so arrogant to say "no please, keep this stuff away from me".

This is the only meaning of my first reply. I want music and I like to concentrate my attention on what I'm listening to. I think this is what most of the proggers do. 

And I'm not shy to say that Yanni's Reflection of Passion is a great album. 

I mentioned Yanni,Kitaro and Vangelis because they are borderline with prog...well, maybe not Yanni, but try Kitaro's Dream and let me know what you think.