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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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dude, read carefully ""Great Gig In the sky" synchronized with "Wizard Of Oz" as an example of listeners surreal creativity" - LISTENERS, I know the whole thing is made up. You can think whatever you want, but you can't deny that coming up with something like that (synchronizing music with a movie that's not connected by name) takes a really big imagination. And THAT was my point. plus, I know well Ron Geesin, I'm fighting for letting him to Progarchives, and he is included in my work. oh, and maybe even more important thing - I'M NOT THE STUDENT OF MUSIC ACADEMY, only Culture Studies, so in my work, that "listeners" aspect is really important. Cheers. Edited by Wiktor Hatif - June 08 2010 at 18:50 |
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18271 |
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I would NOT ... use the PF/Wizard of Oz thing ... that is one of the stupidest things ever, and was originally a joke that stuck. Specially when the original version of Greatest Gig in the Sky was a whole bunch of priests sermonizing over each other and culminating with Syd Barrett stating "... people have stood, and cheered, something they did not understand!" ... and if I was one of the professors in the seat judging you, I would get up and fail you on the spot!
Instead of that ... use "French Windows" or the Gerald Scarfe cartoons used for "The Wall", all of which are almost pure surrealism. "French Windows" was used during the clocks and time stuff. The filming of that stuff is way more surrealistic.
You need to show intelligence and detail ... not crap and supposed rumors!
Do not fall for gags and commercial jokes! Roger Waters is not a Wizard of Oz kind of guy! That kind of stuff had no meaning for the majority of Europe but is a great fad and thing in America!
I think you will have better success if you can link named artists to the work. Gong/Surrealistic/Flying Teapot Trilogy ...
Ron Geesin on his solo albums is remarkably surrealistic.
Good luck ... you're going to need it! Edited by moshkito - June 08 2010 at 18:53 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
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Dude, chill out. You'll need peace of mind to study...
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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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it's not an essay
![]() and I knew they weren't ALWAYS intentionally surreal, BUT they kinda rediscovered it on their own. now, I REALLY have to study for my today's exam. Today's because it's past midnight already :/ |
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
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Well if you also knew that
then why did you screw up your research? ![]() Jokes aside, I'll be interested to read the English version of your essay. Maybe we could give it a place in the "prog documents" section of the site. |
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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Why do you think I don't know those things?
![]() ![]() Edited by Wiktor Hatif - June 08 2010 at 17:33 |
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
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Why do you think I don't know these things?
![]() IMO the progressive movement in music was a development of the avantgarde counterculture of its time. If you look a bit in the documents you'll find that the future prog guys weren't into Ernst and classical modernism, but more into the recent fashions of their time. Give this a spin and it's show you a glimpse of that fabulous era when musicians were intermingling with the hottest visual artists of their time, like Warhol or David Hockney, conceptual and performance artists (like the Fluxus guys), beatniks, writers and avantgarde film directors. Just think of that thriving art scene of the late 60s and then think how many of the future leaders of the rock scene were art students, from Jimmy Page or Pete Townsend to future prog musicians... Did you know Bryan Ferry was a student of Richard Hamilton? Neither did I, until yesterday... ![]() Edited by harmonium.ro - June 08 2010 at 17:12 |
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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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you would have to find some good book about Surrealism, cause it's quite complicated and fascinating nonetheless. Surrealism is not only Salvador Dali (or should I say Avida Dollars, as the pope of surrealism, Breton called him) - in fact he was to Surrealism about that crucial as Kansas to Progressive Rock. That may shock some of you, but it's true. There's also lots of interesting issues, like the fact that Surrealists hated music (mostly after Andre Breton) and that's the main reason there was literally no surrealist music, as there was futurist, or impressionist....
Edited by Wiktor Hatif - June 08 2010 at 17:01 |
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
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I only know of only one kind of collage, and that was invented by the cubists, but I would like to learn new things. Same for the other things you mentioned
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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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it's not that simple as it seems, harmonium.ro :) for example, collage is an invention of cubist - yes, but this kind of collage was only of "esthetic" matter. The collage invented by Max Ernst is a completely different thing. The same thing about other things you mentioned. Sometimes it differ because of different intentions. But I'm not really so sharp in english to explain it :P And there are similarities AND connections. But well, you will have to learn polish and read my work :P Maybe later I'll do a little translation, but I'm too busy now
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
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Well, collage was an invention of the Cubists, automatism was an invention of the Dadaists, fantastic imagery is also a trait of Mannerism, Romantism, Symbolism, etc., mind expansion and mysticism are old as humanity... ![]() Just bullying you. ![]() ![]() Edited by harmonium.ro - June 08 2010 at 16:39 |
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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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I annexed a CD with couple of songs and one video of Genesis (I know what I like - when Gabriel mows the cosmic lawn), and video of "Great Gig In the sky" synchronized with "Wizard Of Oz" as an example of listeners surreal creativity :) there's also lots of CD sleeves.
"I imagine that a lot of professors are going to state that too much of this is not real music and has no value because some of it is not famous ..." - not on my university they won't, and what kind of attitude is it anyway? that's not really scientifical :) plus, I used mostly WELL KNOWN bands, just to make it more clear. |
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18271 |
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I think that the thought is a good one. It has some merit. But it is not absolute, mostly because "progressive" music is not an acceptable term in music history. It might get there in 100 years, but you will have a hard time making it visible to old crones that are simply validating their jobs and making sure you don't get yours! ... after all they have senility ... ooops ... seniority ... or is it ... ?
The only concern I would have with this, and I have been away from the academic world for some time now and was in it because dad was top line of the academic literary world and founded the original and first Comparative Literature field in America (UC systems), and the acceptance for anything more modern was horrendous then (30 years ago), and it is still the same. UCSB, is still teaching the same classes today that it did then, when I graduated! That's progressive education right there!
I would think that you have to establish "progressive rock" first.
And make sure it is solid and firm and understood. If not, your idea/concept, is going down hill fast and you are going to see some yawns quickly! And this is the part that bothers me ... all you have to do is take a look at the "idea" of progressive music here, and no one can agree on anything and we all can find an article of review that the definition means nothing to a lot of the very artists that we love so much.
The other part is making sure you have a solid list of work. I keep thinking that things like the Bonzo Dog Band is a must. But "comedy?", and satirical stuff at that (check out the link between Marat/Sade and "We're Normal" ...
But there are some areas in music that are linked to progressive music that are not mentioned a whole lot that need more exploration. Check this one out --> Daevid Allen/Kevin Ayers/Alan Ginsberg/Syd Barrett/Mr. Burroughs ... all in the same building at the same time. And Soft Machine goes to do an ABC on a jazz piece! Pure Dali/Bunuel/Bresson idea ... totally spontaneous. Syd's stuff is "psychedelic", when it is much more surrealistic than otherwise. The idea of which is also very good for "interpreting sounds" and "create new music" with it. (Interstellar Overdrive) ...
The other scene is not as surrealistic, but just as strong ... you should really check out Werner Herzog, Peter Handke, Peter Weiss, Wim Wenders, Can, Between, Michael Hoenig, Tangerine Dream ... what started as a conceptual free for all, became the best improvisational music ever done ... well, we haven't heard any ragas recorded yet! And they went to film. Surrealism here is disguised some by it's depth and concept ... where the improvisation is, in the end, way more important than the result. And you can not say that Bresson/Dali/Bunuel weren't looking for that! Or discussed is in those terms. Or check out Supersister ...
And some of this is disguised as druggy music and what not ... do not forget that element.
Please also remember one thing ... the artistic/literary process is far better defined in 1930, because there was no "media" to hel disseminate and trash it and popular music to invade any artistic concept. And in the next 30 to 40 years, this changed big time ... and there are times when a concept these days is almost impossible to define, because the minute you do someone breaks it.
We will have to wait for rock music to settle down some more first and hope that commercial music does not kill the history of music as the majority of commercial music is formulaic and only has one or two musical features.
In many ways, progressive music is the same way. The definition itself is forcing the music to get formulaic to the point where one of these days we can easily say that all music you and I hear is "mozart'ian" in concept ... are you happy with that?
In general, I tend to think that a lot of original artistic processes have its inception in a form of surrealism, INCLUDING surrealism itself! (Hehe!)
But there are a lot of artistic folks out there that have experimented and tried a lot of different things. Peter Weiss/Peter Brook/Royal Shakespeare Company exercised with a lot of stuff that probably came from Gurdjieff, and the work "The Mahabharatta" is th eend result of that. Peter Brook also did a film abou thim, called "Meetings with Remarkable Men". Robert Fripp mentions Gurdjieff in passing. Check out a couple of Pasolini films and you see a bunch of French writers in there. Check out Jean Luc Godard's film King Lear and you can see a very surrealistic look at film itself!.
These things are not isolated. And music is not isolated either.
I recommend not isolating "progressive music" from the world as an entity of its own. Like a child is a product of a man and a woman, so is the majority of art and its implementation.
Other listings:
Faust in their first albums were surrealism come to life.
Amon Duul 2 has a serious dose of surrealism in its lyrics that are somewhat evolved from Castaneda, The Doors and Sufi thinking.
I imagine that a lot of professors are going to state that too much of this is not important music (too much popular music in the midst!) and has no value because some of it is not famous ... but if you can show that they are incorrect in their assumption and that many artists the world over in music have tried to do a lot of different things, you might get somewhere.
Ohhh, for an encore, make sure you play out loud ... Dali is an onionhead! Edited by moshkito - June 08 2010 at 18:14 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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a lot. :) but I can't tell you now, yet :) but I can give you a hint: collage, automatism (improvisations), fantastic imagery, aspirations to expand people's minds, misticism, and so on....
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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harmonium.ro ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
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And what connections between prog and surrealism have you found?
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Wiktor Hatif ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 09 2008 Location: Poland Status: Offline Points: 159 |
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Amen, I've just finished my diploma work "Surrealism in progressive rock" - I'll be defending it soon, at the end of the June :) my thesis there is that in most cases Progressive Rock was pursuing the ideals of surrealism movement in many ways :) SO THIS BETTER BE TRUE :P |
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"Ffffaaahhh, seeko baaaaaa
Neeeeee toe, kare lo yeahhh Sa sa sa sa saa! Fssss Drrrrrrrrr bo ki! Rapateeka! do go taaaam Rapateeka! do go tchaa" - "Atom Heart Mother" Pink Floyd/Ron Geesin |
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elder08 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 25 2010 Location: Russia Status: Offline Points: 236 |
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"There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour
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Mr. Maestro ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: March 05 2010 Location: Knowhere, USA Status: Offline Points: 918 |
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![]() ANYTHING from this album.
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"I am the one who crossed through space...or stayed where I was...or didn't exist in the first place...."
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moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18271 |
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Finally and thx!
Fripp and Eno in general are all worth tripping with. I would not consider King Crimson trippy at all, but it is quite satisfying in many places and terribly empty in others.
Alan Stivell, specially his first and best known album still listed as a Red Label. "Renaissance of the Celtic Harp". And all of you cynic new agers should note that this came out a good 10 to 15 years before but you would rather listen to others that weren't even Celtic in their hearts of history! Or maybe what turned them off is that Alan is not a moron, and is politically and socially motivated to help his culture survive and show its true strength of art and music!
Peter Michael Hamel did some interesting things.
Frank Perry had 2 massively fabulous albums with nothing but bells. They are some outstanding meditations.
Georg Deuter. Even though he says that his music is inspired by his guru, there is a lot of really fine music here that is quiet enjoyable in a quiet space.
Tangerine Dream in the earlier stages with Zeit, Atem, Phaedra and Rubycon. And Edgar's Solo Epsilon in Malaysian Pale. I miss this ear of Tangerine Dream. That's not to say I don't care for their other stuff, but the inner quietness and spacyness of these early works were quiet peaceful and truly beautiful in their own way, something that many of us do not have the patience to sit through, or as a friend of mine noted once - "where's the lyrics?" - which is almost what happens here half the time!
Popol Vuh. Enough said. This was nothing but meditation music, done with the synthesizers in the earlier days and then later with accoustic and electric instruments. Sadly, a lot less experimental and meditative music that had a silly label got the credit, and these folks didn't. Aguirre and several other pieces of music were used as soundtrack stuff for Werner Herzog, who made sure that the "vast expanse" of the feeling of the music usually was visible in some way and nowhere is this more visible than in Aguirre, which is for the most part all handheld with the exception of the series of amazing longshots through the Amazon forest. Florian used to say it was just music that he had sitting around (interview listed here in PA, too!) and Werner found something visual that he could add to it, and he DID! In some cases it may not be as good in the film itself, but the music, if you have not heard it, stands up just fine without the film work, and in some cases, stands up a lot better than the film with it. I think the music is found in 5 films, possibly 6 - I have not checked, sorry!
Klaus Schulze. I fing this stuff very quiet inside. However there is a problem here, and it is that unlike many others in the music business, I often like to state that Klaus' music is a raga, pure and simple. And you either close your eyes and live and die with it, or you are better off leaving the room and turning off the CD player! It is all a massive trip, and there is some unbelievable stuff. There is also one other element in this man's music that is missed in the annals of music. That is, that unlike almost anyone else, this stuff is still live and not composed and is free form all the way through. No one has put the "idea" of krautrock or cosmic music to any better effect than this artist. And he is not afraid to expriment and do some things live and if you have not heard "In Blue" with Manuel Gottsching and then "Rheingold" with Lisa Garrard, the full benefit of what an experiment and expression and freedom of flow in music and love, just is not in your vocabulary!
Eberhard Shoenner. In the early days had some far out things and somewhat experimental with electronics. But it only takes one listen to "Tranceformation" to immediately blow out your concepts of music. In a way, he is way too religious for some of our tastes, but at least in his earlier days less of that was visible and there is a nice appreciation for the learning of what music was all about. Btw, in case you didn't know, this appears to be where Sting and Andy Summers met ... and you really should play the first cut in Tranceformation full blast! And then take that other cheap copy 20 years later and trash it!
I'll add more from home ...
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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