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avalanchemaster 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 730
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 Posted: March 21 2010 at 13:03 |
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Area. so layered and complex. Most of the stuff mentioned I do not consider complex.... with the exception of certain classical composers...
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8620
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 14:31 |
 avalanchemaster wrote:
It is correct that some classical is more complex than a lot of prog. For instance, Iannis Xenakis used fractal math and other advanced mathematics for his compositions. Plus they usually aren't as rigid in their song structures.... way more "free" than a lot of prog with more shifting rhythms... well that is at least most 20th century avant garde composers. Once I got into them, prog took a backseat...
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complexity is pretty important to me, in terms of appreciating music-i very much love complex classical music, the best for me being the world of the symphony, the most complex symphonic music being that of the late romantics Mahler and Bruckner-the ultimate in musical depth-to quote the late conductor Bruno Walter-"I could not live my life without the music of Bruckner and Mahler"
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avalanchemaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 730
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 15:19 |
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
It is correct that some classical is more complex than a lot of prog. For instance, Iannis Xenakis used fractal math and other advanced mathematics for his compositions. Plus they usually aren't as rigid in their song structures.... way more "free" than a lot of prog with more shifting rhythms... well that is at least most 20th century avant garde composers. Once I got into them, prog took a backseat...
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complexity is pretty important to me, in terms of appreciating music-i very much love complex classical music, the best for me being the world of the symphony, the most complex symphonic music being that of the late romantics Mahler and Bruckner-the ultimate in musical depth-to quote the late conductor Bruno Walter-"I could not live my life without the music of Bruckner and Mahler"
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well then, give me some recommendations of which compositions/conductors/cd companies to start with(for these two composers)... Do they have any of those super cheap Naxos discs?
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007
Location: Penal Colony
Status: Offline
Points: 11415
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 15:29 |
It's a long time since I dug the critter out and listened to it but Swiss band Island did an album called Pictures circa the late 70's and from memory it was one of the most impenetrably complex records I have ever heard. I think I played it twice and found myself thinking it made Gentle Giant sound like the Ramones. (If only I could find the damn thing  )
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8620
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 16:50 |
avalanchemaster wrote:
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
It is correct that some classical is more complex than a lot of prog. For instance, Iannis Xenakis used fractal math and other advanced mathematics for his compositions. Plus they usually aren't as rigid in their song structures.... way more "free" than a lot of prog with more shifting rhythms... well that is at least most 20th century avant garde composers. Once I got into them, prog took a backseat...
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complexity is pretty important to me, in terms of appreciating music-i very much love complex classical music, the best for me being the world of the symphony, the most complex symphonic music being that of the late romantics Mahler and Bruckner-the ultimate in musical depth-to quote the late conductor Bruno Walter-"I could not live my life without the music of Bruckner and Mahler"
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well then, give me some recommendations of which compositions/conductors/cd companies to start with(for these two composers)... Do they have any of those super cheap Naxos discs? |
there are Mahler and Bruckner symphonies on Naxos-stay away from the Naxos Bruckner-they are not worth it-as far as Mahler symphonies on Naxos-go for the 5th Symphony conducted by Bruno Walter-(historical Naxos)-also would recommend Mahler's 4th Symphony also conducted by Bruno Walter with singer Kathleen Ferrier(historical Naxos) As far as the best performances of Bruckner and Mahler symphonies-conductor Bruno Walter is at the top of both mountain peaks-essential Bruckner from him are symphonies 4,7, and 9 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, sym. 8 with the New York Phil. from 1941-(Music and Arts CD), and his Mahler sym. 1 and 2 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra and New York Philharmonic Orchestras respectively, and his stereo recording of Mahler's 9th with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra. Also great Bruckner is available from conductor Oswald Kabasta (sym. 4,7 and 9-Munich Phil.) the Bruckner's are on Sony (Walter) and Music and Arts(Walter sym. 8)and Music and Arts(Kabasta) the non Naxos Mahler's are on Sony
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avalanchemaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 730
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 20:27 |
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
It is correct that some classical is more complex than a lot of prog. For instance, Iannis Xenakis used fractal math and other advanced mathematics for his compositions. Plus they usually aren't as rigid in their song structures.... way more "free" than a lot of prog with more shifting rhythms... well that is at least most 20th century avant garde composers. Once I got into them, prog took a backseat...
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complexity is pretty important to me, in terms of appreciating music-i very much love complex classical music, the best for me being the world of the symphony, the most complex symphonic music being that of the late romantics Mahler and Bruckner-the ultimate in musical depth-to quote the late conductor Bruno Walter-"I could not live my life without the music of Bruckner and Mahler"
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well then, give me some recommendations of which compositions/conductors/cd companies to start with(for these two composers)... Do they have any of those super cheap Naxos discs? |
there are Mahler and Bruckner symphonies on Naxos-stay away from the Naxos Bruckner-they are not worth it-as far as Mahler symphonies on Naxos-go for the 5th Symphony conducted by Bruno Walter-(historical Naxos)-also would recommend Mahler's 4th Symphony also conducted by Bruno Walter with singer Kathleen Ferrier(historical Naxos)
As far as the best performances of Bruckner and Mahler symphonies-conductor Bruno Walter is at the top of both mountain peaks-essential Bruckner from him are symphonies 4,7, and 9 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, sym. 8 with the New York Phil. from 1941-(Music and Arts CD), and his Mahler sym. 1 and 2 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra and New York Philharmonic Orchestras respectively, and his stereo recording of Mahler's 9th with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.
Also great Bruckner is available from conductor Oswald Kabasta (sym. 4,7 and 9-Munich Phil.)
the Bruckner's are on Sony (Walter) and Music and Arts(Walter sym. 8)and Music and Arts(Kabasta)
the non Naxos Mahler's are on Sony
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thanks. That is a very lengthy list to choose from!
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avalanchemaster
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 730
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 20:28 |
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
It is correct that some classical is more complex than a lot of prog. For instance, Iannis Xenakis used fractal math and other advanced mathematics for his compositions. Plus they usually aren't as rigid in their song structures.... way more "free" than a lot of prog with more shifting rhythms... well that is at least most 20th century avant garde composers. Once I got into them, prog took a backseat...
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complexity is pretty important to me, in terms of appreciating music-i very much love complex classical music, the best for me being the world of the symphony, the most complex symphonic music being that of the late romantics Mahler and Bruckner-the ultimate in musical depth-to quote the late conductor Bruno Walter-"I could not live my life without the music of Bruckner and Mahler"
|
well then, give me some recommendations of which compositions/conductors/cd companies to start with(for these two composers)... Do they have any of those super cheap Naxos discs? |
there are Mahler and Bruckner symphonies on Naxos-stay away from the Naxos Bruckner-they are not worth it-as far as Mahler symphonies on Naxos-go for the 5th Symphony conducted by Bruno Walter-(historical Naxos)-also would recommend Mahler's 4th Symphony also conducted by Bruno Walter with singer Kathleen Ferrier(historical Naxos)
As far as the best performances of Bruckner and Mahler symphonies-conductor Bruno Walter is at the top of both mountain peaks-essential Bruckner from him are symphonies 4,7, and 9 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, sym. 8 with the New York Phil. from 1941-(Music and Arts CD), and his Mahler sym. 1 and 2 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra and New York Philharmonic Orchestras respectively, and his stereo recording of Mahler's 9th with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.
Also great Bruckner is available from conductor Oswald Kabasta (sym. 4,7 and 9-Munich Phil.)
the Bruckner's are on Sony (Walter) and Music and Arts(Walter sym. 8)and Music and Arts(Kabasta)
the non Naxos Mahler's are on Sony
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Thanks! That is a very lengthy list to choose from.. 
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Jake Kobrin
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 20 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1303
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 20:44 |
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Deathspell Omega
is probably the most complex metal band out there... And theyre on the site.
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sigod
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: March 23 2010 at 06:26 |
The early Echolyn albums are good examples of pretty dense musical arrangement (and who owe a little of their sound to what I consider to be one of the more musical exponents of discipline in arrangement: Gentle Giant - as has been mentioned many times here).
If complexity means dexterity and skill behind your chosen instrument, I think The Dillenger Escape Plan have some game as indeed do some of the technical metal groups like Fellsilent or even the IDM guys like Squarepusher.
Personally I think harmonic complexity i.e. chord and melodic structure, often gets overlooked if seated in a song without fast musical passages or odd time signatures. Many Post Rock bands such as Godspeed... or even Stars Of he Lid can get passed over as a result because it's all about what's shines brightly in the front window (and is therefore easy to spot) rather than the interesting items that lurk at the back of the musical store (so to speak).
Edited by sigod - March 23 2010 at 06:30
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I must remind the right honourable gentleman that a monologue is not a decision.
- Clement Atlee, on Winston Churchill
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shockedjazz
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 12 2008
Location: Madrid (spain)
Status: Offline
Points: 169
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Posted: March 23 2010 at 10:25 |
First of all Van der Graaf absolutely.....but the thing with them is their not trying to sound complex for the sake of mere complexity but...well what can you do without bass and guitar? (Pawn hearts avant-masterpiece no doubt).
Its another side of complexity.......if your trying to do a "wall of sound" with just one flute...it have to be complex...it have to sound like your playing two flutes at least...but thats ridicule no one would dare to play two flutes or two saxophones at the same time...if theres is someone doing it must be a f..great genius  
Then Zappa no doubt
And the Italian progers are also kind of complex ( Il Banchetto avant garde sections)
But Rio i think get the price as a style.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: March 23 2010 at 11:06 |
Il Balletto di Bronzo: God, they are extremely complex, you can't expect anything while listening them.
Iván
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Zeromus218
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 03 2010
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 33
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Posted: March 24 2010 at 01:21 |
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Of course i'd like to quote for Deathspell omega ^_^. nice band out there, but i really think that the most complex structured band is still MAGMA!
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 366
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Posted: March 24 2010 at 16:50 |
Here's some RUINS you might have not heard, it's the "symphonic" ruins, not so math rock -oriented...
I don't know about the complexity but this was some kind of answer to the thing mentioned that Ruins would be just a bass player and a drummer and therefore cannot be compositionally complex, but mostly only technically.
Edited by progressive - March 24 2010 at 17:04
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► rateyourmusic.com/~Fastro 2672 ratings ▲ last.fm/user/Fastro 5556 artists ▲ www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=4933 266◄
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Junges
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 19 2006
Location: Brazil
Status: Offline
Points: 645
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Posted: March 24 2010 at 18:43 |
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Deathspell Omega is complex, but is a horrible band.
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progressive
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2005
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 366
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Posted: March 25 2010 at 07:59 |
Deathspell Omega is nice, but not a complex band.
I mean, of course they are complex, but so is many other metal bands, and there's other chaotic bands. I like the chaos and heaviness! It's like noise and determined structure together. I have "Si Monumentum Requires, Circumspice" and "Fas - Ite, Maledicti, in Ignem" and monumentum is more straightforward black metal and not complex, but ignem is more like post-jazz-sludgenoisecore or something like that lol, and it's a great album.
And thanks for presdoug
Edited by progressive - March 25 2010 at 09:05
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► rateyourmusic.com/~Fastro 2672 ratings ▲ last.fm/user/Fastro 5556 artists ▲ www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=4933 266◄
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esky
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 12 2009
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 643
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Posted: April 25 2010 at 11:55 |
 When they weren't trying to be poppy, FM.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: April 25 2010 at 12:03 |
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Karcius? Ohm?
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BaldJean
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 28 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 10387
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Posted: April 25 2010 at 12:17 |
avalanchemaster wrote:
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
It is correct that some classical is more complex than a lot of prog. For instance, Iannis Xenakis used fractal math and other advanced mathematics for his compositions. Plus they usually aren't as rigid in their song structures.... way more "free" than a lot of prog with more shifting rhythms... well that is at least most 20th century avant garde composers. Once I got into them, prog took a backseat...
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complexity is pretty important to me, in terms of appreciating music-i very much love complex classical music, the best for me being the world of the symphony, the most complex symphonic music being that of the late romantics Mahler and Bruckner-the ultimate in musical depth-to quote the late conductor Bruno Walter-"I could not live my life without the music of Bruckner and Mahler"
|
well then, give me some recommendations of which compositions/conductors/cd companies to start with(for these two composers)... Do they have any of those super cheap Naxos discs? |
there are Mahler and Bruckner symphonies on Naxos-stay away from the Naxos Bruckner-they are not worth it-as far as Mahler symphonies on Naxos-go for the 5th Symphony conducted by Bruno Walter-(historical Naxos)-also would recommend Mahler's 4th Symphony also conducted by Bruno Walter with singer Kathleen Ferrier(historical Naxos)
As far as the best performances of Bruckner and Mahler symphonies-conductor Bruno Walter is at the top of both mountain peaks-essential Bruckner from him are symphonies 4,7, and 9 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, sym. 8 with the New York Phil. from 1941-(Music and Arts CD), and his Mahler sym. 1 and 2 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra and New York Philharmonic Orchestras respectively, and his stereo recording of Mahler's 9th with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.
Also great Bruckner is available from conductor Oswald Kabasta (sym. 4,7 and 9-Munich Phil.)
the Bruckner's are on Sony (Walter) and Music and Arts(Walter sym. 8)and Music and Arts(Kabasta)
the non Naxos Mahler's are on Sony
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Thanks! That is a very lengthy list to choose from..
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I consider Johann Sebastian Bach to be a lot more complex than Mahler and definitely more complex than Bruckner with his quite simple triads. I love Mahler, but Bruckner leaves me absolutely cold
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 A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta
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rdtprog
Special Collaborator
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams
Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
Status: Offline
Points: 5285
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Posted: April 25 2010 at 12:57 |
Finnforest wrote:
Karcius? Ohm?
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Karcius!There a complexity that i really enjoy! If we talk about switching to different syles in the same song, this band could be complex. I think also Estradasphere that i enjoy. But i am not really listening to a lot of complex music. So i would say that the bands who play a prog genre with classical influence would be the most musically complex. (Enid, maybe...)
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Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.
Emile M. Cioran
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8620
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Posted: April 25 2010 at 15:21 |
BaldJean wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
presdoug wrote:
avalanchemaster wrote:
It is correct that some classical is more complex than a lot of prog. For instance, Iannis Xenakis used fractal math and other advanced mathematics for his compositions. Plus they usually aren't as rigid in their song structures.... way more "free" than a lot of prog with more shifting rhythms... well that is at least most 20th century avant garde composers. Once I got into them, prog took a backseat...
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complexity is pretty important to me, in terms of appreciating music-i very much love complex classical music, the best for me being the world of the symphony, the most complex symphonic music being that of the late romantics Mahler and Bruckner-the ultimate in musical depth-to quote the late conductor Bruno Walter-"I could not live my life without the music of Bruckner and Mahler"
|
well then, give me some recommendations of which compositions/conductors/cd companies to start with(for these two composers)... Do they have any of those super cheap Naxos discs? |
there are Mahler and Bruckner symphonies on Naxos-stay away from the Naxos Bruckner-they are not worth it-as far as Mahler symphonies on Naxos-go for the 5th Symphony conducted by Bruno Walter-(historical Naxos)-also would recommend Mahler's 4th Symphony also conducted by Bruno Walter with singer Kathleen Ferrier(historical Naxos)
As far as the best performances of Bruckner and Mahler symphonies-conductor Bruno Walter is at the top of both mountain peaks-essential Bruckner from him are symphonies 4,7, and 9 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra, sym. 8 with the New York Phil. from 1941-(Music and Arts CD), and his Mahler sym. 1 and 2 with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra and New York Philharmonic Orchestras respectively, and his stereo recording of Mahler's 9th with the Columbia Symphony Orchestra.
Also great Bruckner is available from conductor Oswald Kabasta (sym. 4,7 and 9-Munich Phil.)
the Bruckner's are on Sony (Walter) and Music and Arts(Walter sym. 8)and Music and Arts(Kabasta)
the non Naxos Mahler's are on Sony
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Thanks! That is a very lengthy list to choose from..
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I consider Johann Sebastian Bach to be a lot more complex than Mahler and definitely more complex than Bruckner with his quite simple triads. I love Mahler, but Bruckner leaves me absolutely cold
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Have you ever heard Bruno Walter's Bruckner recordings? In them, there is a special, inimitable warmth and glow, quite the opposite of cold-Bruno Walter could maybe make you a convert?
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The most musically complex prog band(s)?