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DavetheSlave View Drop Down
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2010 at 03:01
Oh - and - I definately care about the five star ratings as they are as unjustified as a 1 star rating is for that specific album. Dream Theater has 2 albums that would qualify for a 5 star rating - BC&SL isn't one of them.
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2010 at 02:56
Progkidjoel - he can stand by his review - he probably will anyway. This "stupid thread" as you call it has generated 9 pages of healthy discussion.Nuke
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Points: 19643 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2010 at 02:36
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

The Quiet one - I challenge you to explain to me why, relating to what I have said above, BC&SL rates 1 star. Your own words in this thread relating to the album lay bare any argument that you express now.

He doesn't have to; he already wrote a review (which, if you remember, you created this stupid thread about) to justify his 1 star rating.
He doesn't need to justify his rating to your criteria, he didn't write the review to please you. I bet you don't care how many poorly justified 5 star reviews there are for BC&SL.
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 03 2010 at 02:19

The point of this thread has been summed up by Rushfan4. Some of us are not adhering to the rating structure that was put in place originally. 5 star ratings should be reserved for absolute genre classics, not for albums that we personally love and 1 star ratings should be reserved for albums that have no real worth to a specific genre. The Quiet one - I challenge you to explain to me why, relating to what I have said above, BC&SL rates 1 star. Your own words in this thread relating to the album lay bare any argument that you express now.

When I was a newbie here I rated a Tool album with 1 star and I bashed Metallica around a bit in my reviews - I'm not happy about what I did then because I was being really unfair to those who do like those two bands. Today I stay away from Bands that I don't like as far as reviews are concerned because to review them would be to swim in unfamiliar waters. I dislike Extreme / Tech Metal with a passion because I dislike grunting, groaning and screaming incessantly relating to vocals. I dislike what lies behind a lot of that music as well. It's however not for me to slate artists who have validity to others in review formats. I'm happy to bash those feelings out in a thread but not under the album review section.
I could start with Opeth by reviewing each of their albums with 1 star because that's what I personally think of them but would that make me a professional reviewer? - would that give me validity?
 
I was sidetracked by a very pleasant friendly wordwar relating to Mariah vs Tarja earlier in the thread and that's all it was. Mariah Carrey is a talented vocalist, undoubtedly, but she couldn't front Nightwish or Within Temptation. Lol - there I go again Tongue.
 
King-by-tor  - I was never banned from PA and nor am I a troll. I hope I'm not an idiot. Some guy joined PA and started defending my Stratovarius argument, if I recall - but he did so venemously and with some very colourful language. He was banned from PA. That incident caused me to stay away from the forums for a long long time because frankly I was embarrassed by the guy's tantrums. We friends now?Hug 
 
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 12:22
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

bloody hell - can't we start a "why my reviews are better than yours" thread or something?
 
Or make polls of that for that matter: "Who's the better reviewer?" Wink


I am, of courseTongueWinkLOL!
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The Quiet One View Drop Down
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:53
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


I've never heard Black Clouds, I would listen to it if I was given the chance, I'll try anything once.


My opinion: it's not totally bad but nothing great either...don't make it your first DT album, that's for sure.
 
Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you.
 
If it's your first listen of Dream Theater, it's by no means a good introduction, and that any real Dream Theater will admit.
 
If you have not yet heard any of Dream Theater's latest releases with Rudess, it's not a bad start.

"Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you."  Like I said way back on page 2, by PA definitions, this means that you should have given the album 2-stars.  If fans of Dream Theater would like this album than it should get 2-stars.

 
I don't use the definitions of the stars as a guidance, and I doubt many do, some reviewers even created their own rating system which I find perfect and a really smart thing to do.
 
I think the review should explain the reason of the rating, and not focus on the definition of the rating. If that were the case, everybody who rates a POP album by a Prog with more than 2 stars is wrong since they're not "Good Prog Rock release" or however it is. And I could go on with more examples.
Then why do you check the box that says that you agree with ProgArchives terms of reviews.  This is what really ticks me off about reading reviews is that there are so many people who do not follow these guidelines.  It basically makes the entire rating system worthless in my opinion.  If I read you review, under PA's guidelines you should have given the album a 2-star review plain and simple.  And I am not picking you Pablo, but it is this total ignorance of the PA system by so many reviewers that ticks me off.
 
Trying to avoid that, because it's not something to discuss with me if not with an Admin or M@X.
 
I'll go back to your previous post when you said that I should give it a 2 stars because I said it's for fans of Systematic Chaos and Octavarium. I've also said in the review that Black Clouds was, imo, Dream Theater's poorest release, doesn't that count as "poor" which is the definition of 1 star? Does ''only for fans'' imply for fans of certain albums or the entire band?Wink
 
With that you should notice that the rating system, at least imo, is rather flawed and while you should not ignore it completely, you can enhance it a bit yourself.


Edited by The Quiet One - March 02 2010 at 11:55
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:50
Originally posted by Alberto Muņoz Alberto Muņoz wrote:

Or why Jampa17 likes to talk about DT in every thread he canLOL
 
I don't think it deserves a thread for that... I have time to do it and is the only band of I can speak properly... I'm quite an ignorant in all the advant/rio prog thing so... is that or bashing Pink Floyd... LOLWink
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:50
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Then why do you check the box that says that you agree with ProgArchives terms of reviews.  This is what really ticks me off about reading reviews is that there are so many people who do not follow these guidelines.  It basically makes the entire rating system worthless in my opinion.  If I read you review, under PA's guidelines you should have given the album a 2-star review plain and simple.  And I am not picking you Pablo, but it is this total ignorance of the PA system by so many reviewers that ticks me off.
 
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Alberto Muņoz View Drop Down
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:45
Or why Jampa17 likes to talk about DT in every thread he canLOL




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Points: 66264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:44
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


I've never heard Black Clouds, I would listen to it if I was given the chance, I'll try anything once.


My opinion: it's not totally bad but nothing great either...don't make it your first DT album, that's for sure.
 
Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you.
 
If it's your first listen of Dream Theater, it's by no means a good introduction, and that any real Dream Theater will admit.
 
If you have not yet heard any of Dream Theater's latest releases with Rudess, it's not a bad start.

"Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you."  Like I said way back on page 2, by PA definitions, this means that you should have given the album 2-stars.  If fans of Dream Theater would like this album than it should get 2-stars.

 
I don't use the definitions of the stars as a guidance, and I doubt many do, some reviewers even created their own rating system which I find perfect and a really smart thing to do.
 
I think the review should explain the reason of the rating, and not focus on the definition of the rating. If that were the case, everybody who rates a POP album by a Prog with more than 2 stars is wrong since they're not "Good Prog Rock release" or however it is. And I could go on with more examples.
Then why do you check the box that says that you agree with ProgArchives terms of reviews.  This is what really ticks me off about reading reviews is that there are so many people who do not follow these guidelines.  It basically makes the entire rating system worthless in my opinion.  If I read you review, under PA's guidelines you should have given the album a 2-star review plain and simple.  And I am not picking you Pablo, but it is this total ignorance of the PA system by so many reviewers that ticks me off.
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:44
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


First, there's strong bias for and against DT.  Which is just as with any popular band that polarizes.  The fans think the 'for' bias is absolutely justified and notice the 'against' bias...it works vice versa for non-fans.  I say let things be as they are, there's nothing to fix. 

Secondly, I cannot speak for others but I listen to every element of the music carefully so the implied question as to whether I would listen carefully if I don't like the lead singer does not hold good here.  I don't think reviewers pre decide to give a rating to an album..except that they may have already evaluated it in their head and decided on whether it's a 3 star or 4 star album AFTER listening to it.  I see nothing wrong with that.

Lastly, as Robert already said, you cannot eliminate some amount of bias in music reviewing because there are important subjective elements.  It's not as subjective as it's sometimes suggested on the net but subjectivity is a given.  The beauty and diversity of music arises from that everybody looks at it differently and attaches differing importance to different aspects.  Let people speak their mind about an album so long as they don't get profane...let's not try to censor views just to appease fanboys because to my mind they will NEVER be appeased. Wink  I mean, a fanboy is bound to like a mediocre release of a band more than a casual fan and therefore bound to feel that that fan's review was harsh...if we start siding with the fanboy, we might as well abandon the reviewing process.Dead
 
Listen, I don't care if a reviewer gives a 1 or 5...whether its DT or Gentle Giant...I DON'T CARE! I personally do not look at the rating number because there is no criteria to arrive at a 1 or a 5, (or 3.5 Confused),  to my knowledge.
I do read the commentary because I want know what people think of a bands sound, writing, lyrics, package, structure....Basically aesthetics of the album...that pretty much tells me if they listened to the album in detail.
I agree with what others have said, if you give a 1 or 5, you better back it up with good reasoning and not just general..."yea I like it very much = 5"....." I hated it = 1"...it should come from an un-biased state of mind, the number rating that is.
I have NO issue with the 1 star rating on BC&SL...I personally think the commentary to me showed the reviewer did not get the jist of the album nor did he/she listen very closely. And if the answer to that is "yes I did.."...then I am fine with that also, it just means we do not hear the same things...Agree to disagree and I go on.....I'm happy with that.
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:43
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

bloody hell - can't we start a "why my reviews are better than yours" thread or something?
 
Should be it on Just For Fun section (because it will be hilarious) or should be it on the Appreciation section...??? I'm up to it... Thumbs Up
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:43
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

bloody hell - can't we start a "why my reviews are better than yours" thread or something?
 
Or make polls of that for that matter: "Who's the better reviewer?" Wink
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Points: 16111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:41
bloody hell - can't we start a "why my reviews are better than yours" thread or something?
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:40
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


I've never heard Black Clouds, I would listen to it if I was given the chance, I'll try anything once.


My opinion: it's not totally bad but nothing great either...don't make it your first DT album, that's for sure.
 
Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you.
 
If it's your first listen of Dream Theater, it's by no means a good introduction, and that any real Dream Theater will admit.
 
If you have not yet heard any of Dream Theater's latest releases with Rudess, it's not a bad start.

"Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you."  Like I said way back on page 2, by PA definitions, this means that you should have given the album 2-stars.  If fans of Dream Theater would like this album than it should get 2-stars.

 
I don't use the definitions of the stars as a guidance, and I doubt many do, some reviewers even created their own rating system which I find perfect and a really smart thing to do.
 
I think the review should explain the reason of the rating, and not focus on the definition of the rating. If that were the case, everybody who rates a POP album by a Prog with more than 2 stars is wrong since they're not "Good Prog Rock release" or however it is. And I could go on with more examples.
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Points: 66264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:37
Rune2000's review wasn't up for discussion here.  However, if it were, I would have to agree that that makes no sense.
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Points: 16111 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:34
And yet no one find a problem with Rune2000's reviews?

***** star songs: Blah, Blah pt 2

**** Star Songs: Something, Something else

*** Star songs: Song 1

** Star songs: Shortest song on album

therefore I give this album 2 stars


leave Pablo alone...
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:30
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


I've never heard Black Clouds, I would listen to it if I was given the chance, I'll try anything once.


My opinion: it's not totally bad but nothing great either...don't make it your first DT album, that's for sure.
 
Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you.
 
If it's your first listen of Dream Theater, it's by no means a good introduction, and that any real Dream Theater will admit.
 
If you have not yet heard any of Dream Theater's latest releases with Rudess, it's not a bad start.

"Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you."  Like I said way back on page 2, by PA definitions, this means that you should have given the album 2-stars.  If fans of Dream Theater would like this album than it should get 2-stars.

 
That was the goal of my PM that I send to him....!!! thanks Scott... you find the right words...!!!
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:25
Originally posted by King By-Tor King By-Tor wrote:

Awake is a brilliant album - AND the one I count as being the single most important album in getting me into progressive rock when I was in highschool.

If I ever try another DT album I'll make sure it's that one.
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Points: 66264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2010 at 11:24
Originally posted by The Quiet One The Quiet One wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:


I've never heard Black Clouds, I would listen to it if I was given the chance, I'll try anything once.


My opinion: it's not totally bad but nothing great either...don't make it your first DT album, that's for sure.
 
Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you.
 
If it's your first listen of Dream Theater, it's by no means a good introduction, and that any real Dream Theater will admit.
 
If you have not yet heard any of Dream Theater's latest releases with Rudess, it's not a bad start.

"Like I said in my highly acclaimed reviewTongue, if you have listened to Systematic Chaos and Octavarium, and you seriously liked those two, then Black Clouds will have something for you."  Like I said way back on page 2, by PA definitions, this means that you should have given the album 2-stars.  If fans of Dream Theater would like this album than it should get 2-stars.

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