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The Sleepwalker View Drop Down
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Points: 15141 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:10
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

It probably would seventhsojourn but I wanted it to be noticed because it is a point sore to my heart. I've got nothing against the reviewer but I wish more care would be taken before both 5 star and 1 star ratings were dished out. I accept that people will differ in their preferences relating to anything - we all have preferences. I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.

I dislike Franz Liszt's music intensely but I would be a fool to rate it as a 1 given the criteria attached here to a 1 star rating. (I know Liszt's music is not here but I'm using that as an example). I would have to give a 4 if I were pressed. If a non reviewer here rated BC&SL a 1 then I would not complain but a reviewer should be able to be objective and should have an understanding of what he is reviewing. In this case the album speaks for itself - I don't have to defend it. To rate any album of DT a 1 - in fact to rate Foxtrot, Wish you were Here, In Abstentia - or any of those albums a 1 would tell me very quickly that the reviewer doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. We are here because we love music - irrelevantly of the fact that none of us loves all of music. I think that Stevie Vai's guitar style sucks but I would not rate him as less than a 4 star artist because that's what he is. 


Reviewing is not about being objective at all. It can't be objective. If it was objective, you were only allowed to describe what the album is and what is featured on the album, but not if it's done in a good way or if it's done in a bad way. 

Opinions are opinions, you can't change that. I personally don't see much good in Dream Theater, and I don't consider their music to be better than let's say three stars. This is mainly because of the wall of complicated stuff and over technical soloing etc. I hear no heart in the music. What I said is not meant to bash DT however. I can see why someone would rate DT albums 4 or 5 stars, as it in the end all comes down to tastes. 

If you disagree with someone, that's fine. This whole thread seems like a whole lot of fanboyism to me though. If someone would rate Pink Floyd's WYWH one star, that's fine with me. If he can give me some arguments for disliking the album I wouldn't mind it at all, even though I find it a 5 star album myself. 


 
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:26
Dude, you are completely out of line. There is no such thing as good or bad music, and you are pretty ignorant if you don't think that. There is only WHAT YOU CONSIDER GOOD OR BAD MUSIC. What the hell gives you the right to say what is good and bad? People are entitled to their opinions. You may not agree with them, but it doesn't mean you are right and they are wrong.

I personally dislike Dream Theater. I find them cheesy and masturbatory. BUT I wouldn't dream of saying somebody is wrong for liking them.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:33
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.



The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one.  It cannot be proven or verified.  You cannot be objective about your opinion.  This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review."  That doesn't make any sense.  Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like?  Here- I'll write one real quick:


Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater.  It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records.  I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries.  John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album.  He plays more than one note.  The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies.  The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade.  There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes.  Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.


That is an objective review.  Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever.  Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron.  The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.



This is wrong. You should know that the concept of objectivity appeared in the philosophy of exact science not postulating the unreliability of a point of view (meaning a subjective perspective), but the unreliability of the the point of view which is involved in the system under observation. Therefore objectivity means that the point of view is observing from the exteriour of the system and not affecting it at all, giving reliability to the scientific experiment that is being done. Think of a microbiological experiment where you manipulate the materials with your bare hands, as opposed to a microbiological experiment where everything is happening in a perfectly septic environment; this is the best analogy.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:43
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.



The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one.  It cannot be proven or verified.  You cannot be objective about your opinion.  This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review."  That doesn't make any sense.  Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like?  Here- I'll write one real quick:


Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater.  It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records.  I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries.  John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album.  He plays more than one note.  The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies.  The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade.  There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes.  Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.


That is an objective review.  Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever.  Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron.  The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.



This is wrong. You should know that the concept of objectivity appeared in the philosophy of exact science not postulating the unreliability of a point of view (meaning a subjective perspective), but the unreliability of the the point of view which is involved in the system under observation. Therefore objectivity means that the point of view is observing from the exteriour of the system and not affecting it at all, giving reliability to the scientific experiment that is being done. Think of a microbiological experiment where you manipulate the materials with your bare hands, as opposed to a microbiological experiment where everything is happening in a perfectly septic environment; this is the best analogy.



From Merriam-Webster:

Objectivity - expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Subjectivity-  peculiar to a particular individual <subjective judgments> (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident>

We're not talking about science or philosophy here.  We're talking more about journalistic objectivity / subjectivity.  It is simple enough.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:01
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.



The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one.  It cannot be proven or verified.  You cannot be objective about your opinion.  This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review."  That doesn't make any sense.  Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like?  Here- I'll write one real quick:


Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater.  It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records.  I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries.  John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album.  He plays more than one note.  The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies.  The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade.  There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes.  Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.


That is an objective review.  Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever.  Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron.  The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.



This is wrong. You should know that the concept of objectivity appeared in the philosophy of exact science not postulating the unreliability of a point of view (meaning a subjective perspective), but the unreliability of the the point of view which is involved in the system under observation. Therefore objectivity means that the point of view is observing from the exteriour of the system and not affecting it at all, giving reliability to the scientific experiment that is being done. Think of a microbiological experiment where you manipulate the materials with your bare hands, as opposed to a microbiological experiment where everything is happening in a perfectly septic environment; this is the best analogy.



From Merriam-Webster:

Objectivity - expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Subjectivity-  peculiar to a particular individual <subjective judgments> (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident>

We're not talking about science or philosophy here.  We're talking more about journalistic objectivity / subjectivity.  It is simple enough.


That doesn't contradict me at all. Yes, some people's background, experience, ideology, feelings, etc. may affect their view on a matter, but that doesn't mean that it happens in 100% of the situations. Nobody has ever demonstrated that. What I was contradicting was your verdict that "objective opinion" is an oxymoron (meaning that people's feelings, etc. always affect their view). See, it's simple.

Of course this doesn't mean that I don't agree with you on most of what we're talking about is subjective opinion. Most, but not all.
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:25
What annoys me is when people give low or high ratings without real justification, it doesn't make for a very helpful review.
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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:32
You like BC&SL.

Some people do not.

So what?

Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:39
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

What annoys me is when people give low or high ratings without real justification, it doesn't make for a very helpful review.
 
Yep, that's the real point here. There's nothing wrong with a one-star review providing the reviewer gives his or her reasons and it's not just a rant.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:40
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

You like BC&SL.

Some people do not.

So what?




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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:45
WOW! is it me or this thread is seriously focusing on me?
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:48
You're a celebrity Pablo!  Cool

Tell 'em to quit hatin'.  Wink
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:53
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

You're a celebrity Pablo!  Cool

Tell 'em to quit hatin'.  Wink
 
LOL
 
Seriously, I don't understand people sometimes. I think they seriously prefer a 1 star without review, and not because of the weighting, simply because they can't see it being posted! haha....
 
Into more seriousness, did I really say the music in general was bad? I just said that it's the same ol' story, the musicians are fantastic, but like Ivan has mentioned in some of his reviews, that alone doesn't make a good record at all.
 
I did state clear that I was giving 1 star because I found BC&SL to be DT's poorest album.
 
I'm not sure why am I wasting my time here, though...


Edited by The Quiet One - February 25 2010 at 10:54
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Points: 8685 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:59
I have to admit that I find this thread somewhat shocking in it's existence. With all the things in the world there are to get passionate about and all the things in the world to make a fuss about, a single 1 star review does NOT seem to fit into that area for me.

Even as someone who loves this site and wants to see it thrive and exist for years to come, I don't see how a 1 star review should even matter. Read it, understand what they are saying. Move on? If you don't agree, great. There are other reviews that applaud the album. If you want to read about how good it is, then go there. There are people on this site who have different viewpoints, and as far as I am concerned, the more viewpoints there are on a single album, the better this site is, because it's providing more balanced information.

To imply that a reviewer is clueless, doesn't know what is talking about, is being unfair, just because you don't like his rating, to me comes across as very crass and selfish. I get all your analogies about "I wouldn't rate this this way because of ____". But I disagree.

Heck, in response to your first post, I'm still not sure if I would give Brain Salad Surgery two stars or three. Dose that mean that I am clueless? For sure, I understand it's relevance in the prog world, but if I ever reach the point where I'm writing a review about it, I will be writing it based on it's musical merits and how much it affected me. Should we all start giving Britney Spears a lot of applause because her albums are much loved and have influenced others? Popularity does not necessarily mean value.
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Points: 3577 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:04

To Davetheslave: don't take it so personally, after all it's just music.




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Points: 8618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:13
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:

Dude, you are completely out of line. There is no such thing as good or bad music, and you are pretty ignorant if you don't think that. There is only WHAT YOU CONSIDER GOOD OR BAD MUSIC. What the hell gives you the right to say what is good and bad? People are entitled to their opinions. You may not agree with them, but it doesn't mean you are right and they are wrong.

I personally dislike Dream Theater. I find them cheesy and masturbatory. BUT I wouldn't dream of saying somebody is wrong for liking them.
Here, here! Well put-you hit the nail on the head.
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:38
Ok, Davetheslave. I'll contact you so we can plan an alibi for what should be done about this... We have to think it thouroughly though... I wouldn't want you to end up in the can for longer than a music-related crime is worth....
 
 
If we had to create a thread for every case where we don't agree with a review, there'd be nothing else to talk about on this forum. But we don't. We learned loooooooong ago that this music appreciation and reviewing thing is up to each person's tastes and knowledge....
 
The album is not pergfect anyway. I gave it a 5 but I'm starting to feel like lowering it one star. And DT has released a one-star album once.
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:41
While we're talking about subjectivity, I have to admit that my mind rebels when I consider the thought that Beethoven is equal to Nickelback, even though I know that once people start shouting subjectivity subjectivity it gets difficult to prove. Similarly, there are many reviews of Trout Mask Replica which state that there is nothing there and/or Captain Beefheart was trying to make music that nobody would ever actually like (with the implication that all avant fans are fooling themselves into eating sh*t so they feel clever). While I don't think that anybody is obligated to like avant-garde music, even though my sarcastic jokes may cause you to think otherwise, this opinion of course is woefully ignorant of the history of avant-garde music and is also extremely condescending. Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing the same thing, but pop music makes me angry enough that I can't really maintain the though.
 
However, it is possible to achieve a degree of "objectivity" in reviews by considering whether or not people who are different from yourself might like it. Obviously it's not objective in the scientific sense, but it's worth noting as being different from say "This is my opinion and that's it".
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Interestingly, I would expect a 1-start review for any DT album if it came from Henry Plainview, but IMO he has the worst attitude and musical tastes of anyone that I have interacted with here on PA.  Now before I get zapped for insulting a fellow PAer, I honestly think that he takes pride and strives for that, so I don't believe that he would be insulted by that comment. 
Well I make fun of you, so I guess I had that one coming. ;-) And you'll never see a DT review from me. I may be petty, but I'm not petty enough to buy an album I'm pretty sure I won't like just so I can give it a negative review and bring down the PA score a fraction of a percent.
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Points: 28772 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:42
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

You like BC&SL.

Some people do not.

So what?




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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 11:56
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

While we're talking about subjectivity, I have to admit that my mind rebels when I consider the thought that Beethoven is equal to Nickelback, even though I know that once people start shouting subjectivity subjectivity it gets difficult to prove. Similarly, there are many reviews of Trout Mask Replica which state that there is nothing there and/or Captain Beefheart was trying to make music that nobody would ever actually like (with the implication that all avant fans are fooling themselves into eating sh*t so they feel clever). While I don't think that anybody is obligated to like avant-garde music, even though my sarcastic jokes may cause you to think otherwise, this opinion of course is woefully ignorant of the history of avant-garde music and is also extremely condescending. Sometimes I wonder if I'm doing the same thing, but pop music makes me angry enough that I can't really maintain the though.
 
However, it is possible to achieve a degree of "objectivity" in reviews by considering whether or not people who are different from yourself might like it. Obviously it's not objective in the scientific sense, but it's worth noting as being different from say "This is my opinion and that's it".
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Interestingly, I would expect a 1-start review for any DT album if it came from Henry Plainview, but IMO he has the worst attitude and musical tastes of anyone that I have interacted with here on PA.  Now before I get zapped for insulting a fellow PAer, I honestly think that he takes pride and strives for that, so I don't believe that he would be insulted by that comment. 
Well I make fun of you, so I guess I had that one coming. ;-) And you'll never see a DT review from me. I may be petty, but I'm not petty enough to buy an album I'm pretty sure I won't like just so I can give it a negative review and bring down the PA score a fraction of a percent.
 
While I agree that pretty much nothing is better than Beethoven (maybe Bach), and ESPECIALLY Nickelback, and while I also agree that it's to easy to throw the "subjectivity" excuse to disguise complete lack of a reason or actual ideas about what one likes or does not like, it's still true that, under specific conditions, subjectivity reigns supreme. Again, we all know that musically, Beethoven is 93872932 miles more advanced, elaborated, complex than most (all?) pop music (including prog and even your beloved avant garde rock here), but for someone, Nickelback might actually be better. Yes. If that someone is looking for a particular something in music that good old Ludwig can't provide but the post-grunge boremasters can, he/she will rightfully declare that, for his purposes and under his circumstances, the Bonn composer has been easily beaten by the Arkansas (or wherever, they look like Arkansas) boys...
 
After all, in most cases, you can't dance to Beethoven.... (and please people, no smart comments here about how you can actually dance to his music. I'm talking about in the real world with real people).
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 12:45
I think the various sounds coming my computer are the best music ever. All this prog crap can't compare. Listen to that complexity, man!
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