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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:48
You're a celebrity Pablo!  Cool

Tell 'em to quit hatin'.  Wink
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:45
WOW! is it me or this thread is seriously focusing on me?
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:40
Originally posted by J-Man J-Man wrote:

You like BC&SL.

Some people do not.

So what?




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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:39
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

What annoys me is when people give low or high ratings without real justification, it doesn't make for a very helpful review.
 
Yep, that's the real point here. There's nothing wrong with a one-star review providing the reviewer gives his or her reasons and it's not just a rant.
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Points: 7826 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:32
You like BC&SL.

Some people do not.

So what?

Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime
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Points: 65760 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:25
What annoys me is when people give low or high ratings without real justification, it doesn't make for a very helpful review.
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 10:01
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.



The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one.  It cannot be proven or verified.  You cannot be objective about your opinion.  This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review."  That doesn't make any sense.  Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like?  Here- I'll write one real quick:


Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater.  It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records.  I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries.  John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album.  He plays more than one note.  The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies.  The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade.  There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes.  Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.


That is an objective review.  Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever.  Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron.  The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.



This is wrong. You should know that the concept of objectivity appeared in the philosophy of exact science not postulating the unreliability of a point of view (meaning a subjective perspective), but the unreliability of the the point of view which is involved in the system under observation. Therefore objectivity means that the point of view is observing from the exteriour of the system and not affecting it at all, giving reliability to the scientific experiment that is being done. Think of a microbiological experiment where you manipulate the materials with your bare hands, as opposed to a microbiological experiment where everything is happening in a perfectly septic environment; this is the best analogy.



From Merriam-Webster:

Objectivity - expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Subjectivity-  peculiar to a particular individual <subjective judgments> (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident>

We're not talking about science or philosophy here.  We're talking more about journalistic objectivity / subjectivity.  It is simple enough.


That doesn't contradict me at all. Yes, some people's background, experience, ideology, feelings, etc. may affect their view on a matter, but that doesn't mean that it happens in 100% of the situations. Nobody has ever demonstrated that. What I was contradicting was your verdict that "objective opinion" is an oxymoron (meaning that people's feelings, etc. always affect their view). See, it's simple.

Of course this doesn't mean that I don't agree with you on most of what we're talking about is subjective opinion. Most, but not all.
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:43
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.



The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one.  It cannot be proven or verified.  You cannot be objective about your opinion.  This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review."  That doesn't make any sense.  Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like?  Here- I'll write one real quick:


Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater.  It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records.  I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries.  John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album.  He plays more than one note.  The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies.  The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade.  There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes.  Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.


That is an objective review.  Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever.  Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron.  The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.



This is wrong. You should know that the concept of objectivity appeared in the philosophy of exact science not postulating the unreliability of a point of view (meaning a subjective perspective), but the unreliability of the the point of view which is involved in the system under observation. Therefore objectivity means that the point of view is observing from the exteriour of the system and not affecting it at all, giving reliability to the scientific experiment that is being done. Think of a microbiological experiment where you manipulate the materials with your bare hands, as opposed to a microbiological experiment where everything is happening in a perfectly septic environment; this is the best analogy.



From Merriam-Webster:

Objectivity - expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations

Subjectivity-  peculiar to a particular individual <subjective judgments> (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident>

We're not talking about science or philosophy here.  We're talking more about journalistic objectivity / subjectivity.  It is simple enough.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 22989 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:33
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.



The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one.  It cannot be proven or verified.  You cannot be objective about your opinion.  This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review."  That doesn't make any sense.  Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like?  Here- I'll write one real quick:


Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater.  It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records.  I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries.  John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album.  He plays more than one note.  The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies.  The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade.  There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes.  Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.


That is an objective review.  Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever.  Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron.  The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.



This is wrong. You should know that the concept of objectivity appeared in the philosophy of exact science not postulating the unreliability of a point of view (meaning a subjective perspective), but the unreliability of the the point of view which is involved in the system under observation. Therefore objectivity means that the point of view is observing from the exteriour of the system and not affecting it at all, giving reliability to the scientific experiment that is being done. Think of a microbiological experiment where you manipulate the materials with your bare hands, as opposed to a microbiological experiment where everything is happening in a perfectly septic environment; this is the best analogy.
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:26
Dude, you are completely out of line. There is no such thing as good or bad music, and you are pretty ignorant if you don't think that. There is only WHAT YOU CONSIDER GOOD OR BAD MUSIC. What the hell gives you the right to say what is good and bad? People are entitled to their opinions. You may not agree with them, but it doesn't mean you are right and they are wrong.

I personally dislike Dream Theater. I find them cheesy and masturbatory. BUT I wouldn't dream of saying somebody is wrong for liking them.
"Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value."

Arnold Schoenberg
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Points: 15141 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:10
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

It probably would seventhsojourn but I wanted it to be noticed because it is a point sore to my heart. I've got nothing against the reviewer but I wish more care would be taken before both 5 star and 1 star ratings were dished out. I accept that people will differ in their preferences relating to anything - we all have preferences. I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.

I dislike Franz Liszt's music intensely but I would be a fool to rate it as a 1 given the criteria attached here to a 1 star rating. (I know Liszt's music is not here but I'm using that as an example). I would have to give a 4 if I were pressed. If a non reviewer here rated BC&SL a 1 then I would not complain but a reviewer should be able to be objective and should have an understanding of what he is reviewing. In this case the album speaks for itself - I don't have to defend it. To rate any album of DT a 1 - in fact to rate Foxtrot, Wish you were Here, In Abstentia - or any of those albums a 1 would tell me very quickly that the reviewer doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. We are here because we love music - irrelevantly of the fact that none of us loves all of music. I think that Stevie Vai's guitar style sucks but I would not rate him as less than a 4 star artist because that's what he is. 


Reviewing is not about being objective at all. It can't be objective. If it was objective, you were only allowed to describe what the album is and what is featured on the album, but not if it's done in a good way or if it's done in a bad way. 

Opinions are opinions, you can't change that. I personally don't see much good in Dream Theater, and I don't consider their music to be better than let's say three stars. This is mainly because of the wall of complicated stuff and over technical soloing etc. I hear no heart in the music. What I said is not meant to bash DT however. I can see why someone would rate DT albums 4 or 5 stars, as it in the end all comes down to tastes. 

If you disagree with someone, that's fine. This whole thread seems like a whole lot of fanboyism to me though. If someone would rate Pink Floyd's WYWH one star, that's fine with me. If he can give me some arguments for disliking the album I wouldn't mind it at all, even though I find it a 5 star album myself. 


 
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:03
By the way, rather than make a thread to pinpoint one review, there is already a thread to accommodate such discussion:

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28344&PN=1
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 32524 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:59
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.



The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one.  It cannot be proven or verified.  You cannot be objective about your opinion.  This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review."  That doesn't make any sense.  Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like?  Here- I'll write one real quick:


Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater.  It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records.  I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries.  John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album.  He plays more than one note.  The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies.  The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade.  There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes.  Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album.


That is an objective review.  Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever.  Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron.  The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity.

If you don't like someone's rating (and I will admit, I rather agree with Scott about the review in question- it is odd to me), you are welcome to write your own review and assign your own star rating or even PM the author of the review with your comments (so long as you are respectful).

There are albums here with low ratings that I just don't get why people have given them one or two stars, but then many people will wonder why I gave Steven Wilson's Insurgentes or Peter Gabriel's Passion one star.  But the review is an opportunity to justify your rating with details.

If you really want to get into a tussle, try butting heads with some of our members who have a thing for avant-garde stuff- "music" you would claim has absolutely no merit or worth ("should be a coaster") they will defend and explain and rate very highly.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 8052 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:55
Hm. Concerning BC + SL, it's an album I've heard twice, I don't remember thinking it was particularly bad. I'm probably not going to hear it again except out of curiosity. Now, would it be unfair to label an album you don't expect to want to hear again as a 1 regardless of whether you think it's a particularly bad album?

Just musing on the ratings system, to be honest... where I don't think an album has a lot of objective interest or anything to really come back to, I find it hard to judge how to rate it when I don't think it's that bad.
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Points: 24297 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:54
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Now in regards to the particular review and reviewer, I do find his 1-star review particular odd for two reasons.  For one, our tastes do seem to overlap quite a bit, so I find it hard to believe that someone who has similar musical tastes to me would dislike a band and album that I enjoy.  Of course, this is not the first time that this has happened nor will it be the last, but it is still always somewhat complicated to understand.  The second part that I have a problem with the 1-star review, is that the words that he has written in his review actually say 2-star or 3-star review to me.  For one, he says that the music is good, which right there says 3-star.  Secondly, he says that if you are a fan of DT's most recent albums then you will also like this album, thus meeting the PA definition for 2-Stars.  Therefore, plain and simply his words don't match his rating.  And with that I agree with DaveTheSlave, that as someone who has the standing of Prog Reviewer he should have taken better care in matching his rating to his review. 
 
It's quite a common practice here on PA to give 1- or 2-star ratings when an artist becomes too repetitive in the reviewer's opinion. The reviewers who are tagged as "Prog Reviewer" are no exception on this rule. Take for example Neal Morse's Lifeline-album. Some of those who have given 3, 4 or 5 stars to one of his earlier albums give Lifeline a low rating for this reason. If someone wants to cough up all the reviews which do not match the ratings (or the ratings of similar albums from the same artists) he will have some work to do...


Edited by someone_else - February 25 2010 at 08:54
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Points: 66264 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:35

Interestingly, I would expect a 1-start review for any DT album if it came from Henry Plainview, but IMO he has the worst attitude and musical tastes of anyone that I have interacted with here on PA.  Now before I get zapped for insulting a fellow PAer, I honestly think that he takes pride and strives for that, so I don't believe that he would be insulted by that comment. 

Now in regards to the particular review and reviewer, I do find his 1-star review particular odd for two reasons.  For one, our tastes do seem to overlap quite a bit, so I find it hard to believe that someone who has similar musical tastes to me would dislike a band and album that I enjoy.  Of course, this is not the first time that this has happened nor will it be the last, but it is still always somewhat complicated to understand.  The second part that I have a problem with the 1-star review, is that the words that he has written in his review actually say 2-star or 3-star review to me.  For one, he says that the music is good, which right there says 3-star.  Secondly, he says that if you are a fan of DT's most recent albums then you will also like this album, thus meeting the PA definition for 2-Stars.  Therefore, plain and simply his words don't match his rating.  And with that I agree with DaveTheSlave, that as someone who has the standing of Prog Reviewer he should have taken better care in matching his rating to his review. 
 
DT is sort of an odd situation for many reasons due to their volatility amongst prog fans.  I'll leave it at that.  There are plenty of PAers who I would think would be huge DT fans based on their other musical tastes that for whatever their reasoning can't stand DT.  And of course they also have a rabid fan base.  Therefore, they get what are probably unnecessarily high markings from their fanbase, and yet, unnecessarily low markings from their haters.  IMO, this is sadly due to the extremely high degree of different music that falls under the ProgArchives umbrella definition of prog.  If you seriously step back and take a look at it, how in the world can music as diverse as Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Meshuggah fall under the same prog umbrella.  Maybe I am wrong, but to my ear, these two musics have absolutely nothing at all in common.  And of course the second thing that is funny about that is I do believe that neither bands groups of fans like Dream Theater.  GY!BE fans think that they are too loud and too much w**kery and Meshuggah fans think they are too slow, boring and derivative.  What a crazy world us proggers live in. 
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Points: 20030 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 07:12

It is actually possible for Dream Theater to release an album that someone doesn't like. I don't know the review you're referring to but providing the reviewer gives valid reasons for giving 1 star and it's not just a "this album is sh*t" style rant, then it's not a problem.

Musically speaking the album is good in that it's played well as you would expect but it is lacking in melody, something I find a lot in DT (and I do own the album). Take the opening of The Count of Tuscany for example - the vocal melody is basically following the chord changes.
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 07:09

It probably would seventhsojourn but I wanted it to be noticed because it is a point sore to my heart. I've got nothing against the reviewer but I wish more care would be taken before both 5 star and 1 star ratings were dished out. I accept that people will differ in their preferences relating to anything - we all have preferences. I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective.

I dislike Franz Liszt's music intensely but I would be a fool to rate it as a 1 given the criteria attached here to a 1 star rating. (I know Liszt's music is not here but I'm using that as an example). I would have to give a 4 if I were pressed. If a non reviewer here rated BC&SL a 1 then I would not complain but a reviewer should be able to be objective and should have an understanding of what he is reviewing. In this case the album speaks for itself - I don't have to defend it. To rate any album of DT a 1 - in fact to rate Foxtrot, Wish you were Here, In Abstentia - or any of those albums a 1 would tell me very quickly that the reviewer doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. We are here because we love music - irrelevantly of the fact that none of us loves all of music. I think that Stevie Vai's guitar style sucks but I would not rate him as less than a 4 star artist because that's what he is. 
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Points: 8618 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 06:50
 In appreciating music, sometimes "one man.s food is another man's poison"-it has always been that way
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Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 25 2010 at 06:34
Would this thread not sit better in Reviews Discussion?
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