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DavetheSlave 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
 Topic: Music AppreciationPosted: February 25 2010 at 03:02 |
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I am a Dream Theater fanboy but then I am a fanboy of early Yes, early Genesis, Rush, Camel, Caravan, Riverside etc. Truth be told I am a fanboy of good music. I expect some very volatile answers to my post so don't be embarrassed to respond : )
The reason for my post here is that I just read a review for Dream Theater's Dark clouds and Silver Linings album and, to be honest, half an hour later I am still seething.
Someone who does not recognise good music for what it is should refrain from writing album reviews. No one can blame anyone for not liking a band or an album as that is a personal taste issue but to bash something that clearly has value, regardless of personal preferance, shows an inability to seperate the personal from the facts.
Had DCaSL been released as a debut album by any new Prog act it would have been very well received. It was released by Dream Theater and that is where the review and rating problems start. DT will probably never release another Images and Words purely because they have moved on. Anyone who feels that their latest offering is worth 1 or 2 stars should reconsider their own knowledge of prog music and should refrain from writing reviews - in the same way that anyone who gives 2112, Foxtrot or Brain Salad Surgery 1 or 2 star reviews should keep their reviews to themselves because they show that they don't really know what they are talking about. DCaSL is not a 5 star album - to many it may only warrant 3 - but please! A 1 star review from someone we recognise here as a prog reviewer? I am disappointed to say the least.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008 Location: Declined Status: Offline Points: 16715 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:09 |
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I believe the clouds are actually black, not just dark.
And you may disappointed in us, but we're disappointed in you for making this thread. I think it evens out.
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:14 |
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Henry - are you telling me that the album deserves a 1 star rating?
We are warned before using 5 stars - shouldn't the same apply to one star ratings. I reserve 1 star ratings for discs that I use as coffee cup coasters.
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Sckxyss
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 05 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:32 |
If I needed a coaster, and for whatever reason had a copy of that album, I wouldn't refrain from using it as a coaster. Am I allowed to rate it 1 star now? |
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Pekka
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 03 2006 Location: Espoo, Finland Status: Offline Points: 6442 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:47 |
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I see nothing wrong with the review you're referring to, I think it's a good one. I disagree with it, as it is the first DT album in years that I really enjoy, but that doesn't mean the reviewer is wrong.
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 03:58 |
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A reviewer is wrong when he gives no credit for the obvious. Had he given a 2 star rating I would not have been prompted to respond as I have. A can personally hate Japanese cars but the second I trash them as having no merit then I am showing my lack of knowledge as well as my inability to judge. Whether I hate it or not is not the point. Whether it merits more than 1 star as a musical entity in this case is the point. No one who understands anything about music can state that that particular album is worth a one star rating. I hate Opeth with a passion but I cannot state that any of their albums rates a 1 star review. There is no way that musicians of the calibre of those in Dream Theater can put down tracks that have that little merit. Take the name Dream Theater out of the equation as that name seems to insense a lot of people here. Thank goodness that their fan base number is not equivalent to the number of members of PA. else they may well have ceased to exist.
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Harry Hood
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2005 Status: Offline Points: 1305 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 04:01 |
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I think I'd use the main disc as a coaster and keep the instrumental disc and covers disc around as a reminder to not buy the album again.
Edited by Harry Hood - February 25 2010 at 04:02 |
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Sckxyss
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 05 2007 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 1319 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 04:20 |
What's "obvious" to you probably isn't obvious to everyone else. Does that make you more correct? Perhaps other reviewers judge music on more than the calibre of the musicians (which I think for most music is a silly way to judge anyway), and instead judge on other aspects of the music: melodies, originality, creativity, compositional complexity, etc. Whatever qualities that make music good to them. I think the reviewer in question more than sufficiently explained why he felt the way he does, fully justifying the 1 star. It's not even that farfetched of an idea that BC&SL was a weak release. The general consensus seems to be that it's only average to good at best, so I don't know why it's shocking to see the occasional bad review. |
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24297 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 04:48 |
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I have not heard this Dream Theater album and it's not on top of my wishlist to hear it, but that does not matter. I think that anyone her has the right to give any album a one star rating, especially when this is accompanied by a good argumentation, regardless of the number of stars above his avatar. And there are more cases in which prog reviewers have very different opinions about an album. And if their ratings differ from the ones that I would give, it does not make them unworthy reviewers. But one thing is sure: the first step on the way to good judgment is reverting from fanboyism.
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 04:48 |
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Had I been in a rush to go out to the music store and buy an album I would have disregarded BC&SL because of that review. That, to me, would have been criminal. It is not the best DT album out there but it is good. Sit down and analyse the melodies, the technicality, and the heart of the album and tell me honestly that you see a 1 star rating being warranted.
Dream Theater are leagues ahead of most prog metal acts out there as they have been since their inception. They have released no poor albums with the exception of their "Made in Japan" Deep Purple emulation.
What I dislike is the drivel that is being accepted with 4 to 5 star ratings today on PA under the prog metal heading when the poorest releases by Dream Theater are miles ahead and receiving low ratings.
Why must we compare DT's releases to their own previous releases without looking at the merits of each release as opposed to the other offerings being handed to us.
Be brave and tell me that musically BC&SL is a one star effort. Tell me that there are no melodies, there is no virtuosity, the songwriting is tragic- tell me those those things so that I can disregard anything you write in future.
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progkidjoel
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: March 02 2009 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 19643 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 05:31 |
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People have different opinions to you. Get over it.
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 11 2009 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 4006 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 06:34 |
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Would this thread not sit better in Reviews Discussion?
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 8618 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 06:50 |
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In appreciating music, sometimes "one man.s food is another man's poison"-it has always been that way
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DavetheSlave
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 23 2007 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 492 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 07:09 |
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It probably would seventhsojourn but I wanted it to be noticed because it is a point sore to my heart. I've got nothing against the reviewer but I wish more care would be taken before both 5 star and 1 star ratings were dished out. I accept that people will differ in their preferences relating to anything - we all have preferences. I cannot accept anyone giving a 1 rating to BC&SL holding a title such as prog reviewer. Tell me you hate the album, tell me that it disgusts you - but don't try to tell me that it has little or no merit. Reviewing is about being objective. I dislike Franz Liszt's music intensely but I would be a fool to rate it as a 1 given the criteria attached here to a 1 star rating. (I know Liszt's music is not here but I'm using that as an example). I would have to give a 4 if I were pressed. If a non reviewer here rated BC&SL a 1 then I would not complain but a reviewer should be able to be objective and should have an understanding of what he is reviewing. In this case the album speaks for itself - I don't have to defend it. To rate any album of DT a 1 - in fact to rate Foxtrot, Wish you were Here, In Abstentia - or any of those albums a 1 would tell me very quickly that the reviewer doesn't have a clue as to what he is talking about. We are here because we love music - irrelevantly of the fact that none of us loves all of music. I think that Stevie Vai's guitar style sucks but I would not rate him as less than a 4 star artist because that's what he is. |
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chopper
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20030 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 07:12 |
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It is actually possible for Dream Theater to release an album that someone doesn't like. I don't know the review you're referring to but providing the reviewer gives valid reasons for giving 1 star and it's not just a "this album is sh*t" style rant, then it's not a problem. Musically speaking the album is good in that it's played well as you would expect but it is lacking in melody, something I find a lot in DT (and I do own the album). Take the opening of The Count of Tuscany for example - the vocal melody is basically following the chord changes.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66264 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:35 |
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Interestingly, I would expect a 1-start review for any DT album if it came from Henry Plainview, but IMO he has the worst attitude and musical tastes of anyone that I have interacted with here on PA. Now before I get zapped for insulting a fellow PAer, I honestly think that he takes pride and strives for that, so I don't believe that he would be insulted by that comment. Now in regards to the particular review and reviewer, I do find his 1-star review particular odd for two reasons. For one, our tastes do seem to overlap quite a bit, so I find it hard to believe that someone who has similar musical tastes to me would dislike a band and album that I enjoy. Of course, this is not the first time that this has happened nor will it be the last, but it is still always somewhat complicated to understand. The second part that I have a problem with the 1-star review, is that the words that he has written in his review actually say 2-star or 3-star review to me. For one, he says that the music is good, which right there says 3-star. Secondly, he says that if you are a fan of DT's most recent albums then you will also like this album, thus meeting the PA definition for 2-Stars. Therefore, plain and simply his words don't match his rating. And with that I agree with DaveTheSlave, that as someone who has the standing of Prog Reviewer he should have taken better care in matching his rating to his review.DT is sort of an odd situation for many reasons due to their volatility amongst prog fans. I'll leave it at that. There are plenty of PAers who I would think would be huge DT fans based on their other musical tastes that for whatever their reasoning can't stand DT. And of course they also have a rabid fan base. Therefore, they get what are probably unnecessarily high markings from their fanbase, and yet, unnecessarily low markings from their haters. IMO, this is sadly due to the extremely high degree of different music that falls under the ProgArchives umbrella definition of prog. If you seriously step back and take a look at it, how in the world can music as diverse as Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Meshuggah fall under the same prog umbrella. Maybe I am wrong, but to my ear, these two musics have absolutely nothing at all in common. And of course the second thing that is funny about that is I do believe that neither bands groups of fans like Dream Theater. GY!BE fans think that they are too loud and too much w**kery and Meshuggah fans think they are too slow, boring and derivative. What a crazy world us proggers live in.
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someone_else
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: May 02 2008 Location: Going Bananas Status: Offline Points: 24297 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:54 |
It's quite a common practice here on PA to give 1- or 2-star ratings when an artist becomes too repetitive in the reviewer's opinion. The reviewers who are tagged as "Prog Reviewer" are no exception on this rule. Take for example Neal Morse's Lifeline-album. Some of those who have given 3, 4 or 5 stars to one of his earlier albums give Lifeline a low rating for this reason. If someone wants to cough up all the reviews which do not match the ratings (or the ratings of similar albums from the same artists) he will have some work to do... Edited by someone_else - February 25 2010 at 08:54 |
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007 Location: n/a Status: Offline Points: 8052 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:55 |
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Hm. Concerning BC + SL, it's an album I've heard twice, I don't remember thinking it was particularly bad. I'm probably not going to hear it again except out of curiosity. Now, would it be unfair to label an album you don't expect to want to hear again as a 1 regardless of whether you think it's a particularly bad album?
Just musing on the ratings system, to be honest... where I don't think an album has a lot of objective interest or anything to really come back to, I find it hard to judge how to rate it when I don't think it's that bad. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 08:59 |
The statement, "This album has merit" is a subjective one. It cannot be proven or verified. You cannot be objective about your opinion. This is something that mildly irritates me- when people around here say, "I was being objective in my review." That doesn't make any sense. Want to see what an objective review of Black Clouds & Silver Linings looks like? Here- I'll write one real quick: Black Clouds & Silver Linings is the tenth studio album by Dream Theater. It was released June 23, 2009 on Roadrunner records. I bought it at Wal-Mart while my family was buying groceries. John Petrucci plays the guitar on this album. He plays more than one note. The album debuted at #6 on the Billboard 200 selling 40,285 copies. The album was named as one of Classic Rock's 10 essential progressive rock albums of the decade. There are six tracks on the single disc version, and the last one exceeds nineteen minutes. Lindsay Lohan does not have anything directly to do with this album. That is an objective review. Notice, now, how this is therefore not a review- it does not give any personal impressions about the music whatsoever. Therefore, "objective review" is an oxymoron. The act of even assigning a star rating to an album involves subjectivity. If you don't like someone's rating (and I will admit, I rather agree with Scott about the review in question- it is odd to me), you are welcome to write your own review and assign your own star rating or even PM the author of the review with your comments (so long as you are respectful). There are albums here with low ratings that I just don't get why people have given them one or two stars, but then many people will wonder why I gave Steven Wilson's Insurgentes or Peter Gabriel's Passion one star. But the review is an opportunity to justify your rating with details. If you really want to get into a tussle, try butting heads with some of our members who have a thing for avant-garde stuff- "music" you would claim has absolutely no merit or worth ("should be a coaster") they will defend and explain and rate very highly. |
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: February 25 2010 at 09:03 |
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By the way, rather than make a thread to pinpoint one review, there is already a thread to accommodate such discussion:
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28344&PN=1 |
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Music Appreciation
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DavetheSlave wrote: