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Topic ClosedDream Theater - Prog or not?

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Poll Question: Do you regard Dream Theater as a prog band?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
95 [66.90%]
15 [10.56%]
8 [5.63%]
1 [0.70%]
23 [16.20%]
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Bonnek View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 10:56
Originally posted by Camel666 Camel666 wrote:

Really, what's NOT progressive about DT's sound? World's most famous prog-metal band deemed to be NOT prog by prog fans themselves. Imho, it's the plain and old "they are succesful therefore I hate them and they are not prog or I'll tell mummy" scheme all over again. Tongue

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot.

Agreed to some extent (love Gordian Knot btw, and even the Italian Nodo Gordiano :) but we need to get things clear here. If by "progressive" we mean only the "going musically further" part of it, then we should cut at least 80% of the bands listed on progarchives. The most-loved and utterly prog Porcupine Tree being the first, considering they sound like a broken vynil from the 70s. And I love them for this.

Progressive is not only about being original and raising the bar, even though sometimes it might get down just to that. It certainly was born that way, with bands experimenting mixing genres and influences but with time it HAS become a genre of its own and right now it has its canons. DT definitely play by these canons. Ok, it's Rush meet Kansas meet Rudess all over again but it is prog nonetheless. Or therefore, I don't know anymore LOL 
Moreover, their influence is so big that half of the bands currently considered prog-metal would sh*t in their pants, should we pass this motion.


I also put DT in the last category, "metal with progressive elements".

The reason is not because they have or (have not) pushed boundaries, but simply because they do not apply one of the formal aspect of Prog:

One of the main formal features to evaluate whether something is Prog or not is in the song writing. Prog songs typically use developing ('progressing') themes and melodies that flow into one another.
A song starts at point A and before you know it they are at point Z. A good example for me is the first 5 minutes of Echoes.

This is clearly opposed to song writing in metal, which builds songs as a sequence of riffs. That's also what I hear Dream Theatre doing.

Prog is not a sequence of riffs, Metal is. The fact whether those themes or riffs are either simple or complicated doesn't matter as much.
Also it has nothing to do with the quality. One method is not 'better' then the other.



Edited by Bonnek - February 19 2010 at 11:00
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 11:04
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:



I also put DT in the last category, "metal with progressive elements".

The reason is not because they have or (have not) pushed boundaries, but simply because they do not apply one of the formal aspect of Prog:

One of the main formal features to evaluate whether something is Prog or not is in the song writing. Prog songs typically use developing ('progressing') themes and melodies that flow into one another.
A song starts at point A and before you know it they are at point Z. A good example for me is the first 5 minutes of Echoes.

This is clearly opposed to song writing in metal, which builds songs as a sequence of riffs. That's also what I hear Dream Theatre doing.

Prog is not a sequence of riffs, Metal is. The fact whether those themes or riffs are either simple or complicated doesn't matter as much.
Also it has nothing to do with the quality. One method is not 'better' then the other.



ExactlyClap. Voting for the last option is not a value judgment - I like Iron Maiden infinitely better than DT, yet I believe they would fit that description as well. Saying DT are a metal band with progressive tendencies does not entail wanting to chuck them out of the site, or asking for them to be moved to Prog-Related. As far as I am concerned, they can stay where they are, and people are free to consider them authentically progressive. I am not trying to convince anyone otherwise, but am afraid the opposite might be happening.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 11:33
Originally posted by Bonnek Bonnek wrote:

 One of the main formal features to evaluate whether something is Prog or not is in the song writing. Prog songs typically use developing ('progressing') themes and melodies that flow into one another.
A song starts at point A and before you know it they are at point Z. A good example for me is the first 5 minutes of Echoes.

This is clearly opposed to song writing in metal, which builds songs as a sequence of riffs. That's also what I hear Dream Theatre doing.

Prog is not a sequence of riffs, Metal is. The fact whether those themes or riffs are either simple or complicated doesn't matter as much.
Also it has nothing to do with the quality. One method is not 'better' then the other.

I see your point and I agree to some extent but I honestly think of it as a difference in terms more than in facts. After all a riff is itself a repeated melodic figure. The fact that the "progression" is made through riffs doesn't really change the substance of things. It's not like we don't define Bolero's Ravel or Wagner's Ride of the Valkyries classical because they are based on riffs. 

Moreover, in psych/space rock bands like Floyd or Hawkwind you often see this process you're talking about but many other prog bands extensively used riffs in their compositions - Siberian Khatru, anyone?  It's rock we're talking about here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 11:57
Ok. One question. It's very unlikely but let's say this poll reveals DT are not prog... Should be remove them off PA? Or put them in prog-related? 


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 11:58
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ok. One question. It's very unlikely but let's say this poll reveals DT are not prog... Should be remove them off PA? Or put them in prog-related? 


 
I doubt that, since the Admins most likely wouldn't agree neither the Prog Metal team which are the ones who decide.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 13:08
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:


ExactlyClap. Voting for the last option is not a value judgment - I like Iron Maiden infinitely better than DT, yet I believe they would fit that description as well. Saying DT are a metal band with progressive tendencies does not entail wanting to chuck them out of the site, or asking for them to be moved to Prog-Related. As far as I am concerned, they can stay where they are, and people are free to consider them authentically progressive. I am not trying to convince anyone otherwise, but am afraid the opposite might be happening.

I don't know, you guys might be right, I am not particularly fond of labels after all and you look much more literate than me on the sbuject Wink, but calling DT non-prog because they use riffs while having on the site the most disparate bands and genres sounds both picky and schizophrenic at the same time.

Anyway, back on the matter, a couple of doubts come to my mind. You are practically saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, that progressive metal as a genre doesn't exist, because the extensive usage of riffs puts the prog out of prog-metal. Can this be? And also, what's the border between being progressive rock and becoming progressive metal? Is it riffs then? Is there even a border? What is Rush? Analog Kid is not prog? And what about Kansas's violin? Don't Marillion -and many others- rely on riffs?

Please bear in mind I am discussing just for the sake of it, I am really curious to know, no pun intended. On this forum I've learnt Radiohead are progressive and DT might not and I honestly find it fifficult to understand. 


Edited by Camel666 - February 19 2010 at 13:24
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 13:25
Originally posted by The T The T wrote:

Ok. One question. It's very unlikely but let's say this poll reveals DT are not prog... Should be remove them off PA? Or put them in prog-related? 




Teo, excuse me for asking, but didn't you vote for the last option yourself?Confused Now I am a little bit confused...

Edit (@Camel666): I believe it was the Prog-metal experts themselves (The T, aka Teo, first of all) who pointed out that Prog-Metal and Prog-Rock are different. Therefore, I, as a non-expert, cannot but defer to their superior knowledge (no irony intended here!). Not being a musician myself, I judge music impressionistically, and - having heard both a lot of prog and a lot of classic metal - this is the impression I got when listening to DT. Anyway, I believe a practising musician could explain to you what the difference is between the use of riffs in prog and in metal. I only know that I HEAR the difference, but cannot explain it in technical terms.


Edited by Raff - February 19 2010 at 13:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:03
I voted for option 2.  Option 1 is slightly confusing.  How can a band be both prog rock and prog metal?  Do you mean they have some prog rock albums, and others are prog metal?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:24
Originally posted by Angel of Death Angel of Death wrote:

I voted for option 2.  Option 1 is slightly confusing.  How can a band be both prog rock and prog metal?  Do you mean they have some prog rock albums, and others are prog metal?


If one treats metal as a rock subcategory, then more narrowly it can be defined as metal while more generally described as a form of rock music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:25
Ah. Option 1 is for the ones who subscribe to the notion that prog metal is a subgenre of prog rock, whereas option 2 is for those who feel that prog metal has nothing to do at all with prog rock ;-)
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 15:28
Ah, great idea, mixing a "what is prog" thread with a Dream Theater thread. I'll post tomorrow on page 10 LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 16:41
Originally posted by Camel666 Camel666 wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:


ExactlyClap. Voting for the last option is not a value judgment - I like Iron Maiden infinitely better than DT, yet I believe they would fit that description as well. Saying DT are a metal band with progressive tendencies does not entail wanting to chuck them out of the site, or asking for them to be moved to Prog-Related. As far as I am concerned, they can stay where they are, and people are free to consider them authentically progressive. I am not trying to convince anyone otherwise, but am afraid the opposite might be happening.

I don't know, you guys might be right, I am not particularly fond of labels after all and you look much more literate than me on the sbuject Wink, but calling DT non-prog because they use riffs while having on the site the most disparate bands and genres sounds both picky and schizophrenic at the same time.

Anyway, back on the matter, a couple of doubts come to my mind. You are practically saying, and please correct me if I am wrong, that progressive metal as a genre doesn't exist, because the extensive usage of riffs puts the prog out of prog-metal. Can this be? And also, what's the border between being progressive rock and becoming progressive metal? Is it riffs then? Is there even a border? What is Rush? Analog Kid is not prog? And what about Kansas's violin? Don't Marillion -and many others- rely on riffs?

Please bear in mind I am discussing just for the sake of it, I am really curious to know, no pun intended. On this forum I've learnt Radiohead are progressive and DT might not and I honestly find it fifficult to understand. 


It's not just the "riffs verses theme" development, there's also the use of keyboards, complex time signatures, non-verse-chorus song structures that make something Prog from a formal perspective.
And from an artistic perspective it's of course the innovative aspect, the whole thing about progressing a style of rock and so on.
And I may even be forgetting some characteristics.

Now Dream Theatre has some of these things above but not all.

Most of all that theme development is essential to call something "true prog rock" and it's something that Metal will always have trouble with because of it's riff-based structure. In some cases, as with Opeth, the riffs span multiple bars and (usually 4) and have almost become progressive by themselves!

As to Marillion, that's easy, just listen again to the Script For a Jester's Tear track, it has a clear thematic and scenic development.





Edited by Bonnek - February 19 2010 at 16:48
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 22:17
I definitly know just about nothing from music theory and it's terms, but it would seem to me that many of DT's songs do progress (at least more than other metal bands). First comes to my mind Octavarium, but then also Fianally Free, both of which include many different themes that still sound perfectly well together. I'm sure if I think harder or listen to them again I can find more. However, I could easily be misinterpreting what's been said here.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 23:19
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Man Overboard Man Overboard wrote:

You might not care for their "unique" songwriting style or lack of subtlety (I certainly don't), but you'd be a damned fool not to see that it's prog.  Just because it's prog doesn't mean you have to like it, and just because you like it doesn't mean it's prog.  


I don't doubt your sincerity here but take a step back and consider that there are many member of PA who might find the terms you use to couch such an opinion a tad intimidating i.e. if I express my sincere opinion but disagree with this poster I am deemed a fool. Please don't allow us to hoist you by your own petard.


Have to agree with Iain here. People will very soon be intimidated into not posting anymore if this kind of attitude keeps upCry. I have seen plenty of slurs against bands I love (like ELP and The Mars Volta), but never once have I barged into a thread calling people fools, even if I think they are.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, I would be inclined to go for the last option. Personally, I believe true prog-metal to be other than DT and their many followers (which of course is not a value judgment at all) - Voivod, for instance, strike me as much more authentically progressive than DT, not to mention instrumental bands like Canvas Solaris or Gordian Knot.
 
I think he didn't meant no harm or try to intimidate anyone... I encourage to anyone who don't think like him to step up and debate... Is a healthy thing to do and we all are safe behind our own monitors. No one could hurt us here...
 
Now, I think his logic is very clear... they are prog metal, then that's why they are prog, and that's why they are here in this site, like it or not. Now, if they are more metal than prog, well, is like saying that Pink Floyd is more psychodelic that prog or that Genesis is more pop than prog... I know this last two sentences seem to be "fool" ussing Manoverboard terms... but is in fact true... If we keep thinking "Prog" is a owner term, if we think that prog is something crystal clear and it have to be in every sub genre as a main influence we are not "progressing" and the term lose logic...
 
@Raff: you can like more prog metal bands, that's a matter of tastes again... but, to say that DT is a metal band with a brief show of progressive-ness... well... I don't find any problem with that, as long as we don't try to saved the concept "prog" only to what we like... I'm really stopping myself to bash Mars Volta because is not the case... but they are not mainly progressive as well...
 
 

LOL  Epic backlash.  Jampa has the right idea; I generally try to present things that are backed with logic and -should- stand up to debate.  If my logic is flawed, my view would naturally be altered.  But I certainly wasn't trying to put anyone's back up, I apologize.  Still, if one -did- hold such an opinion, mayhaps they should be exposed to logic and rethink the situation.



Except I've not really seen anyone put that opinion forth...  only in theory, as the OP presents.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2010 at 23:57
I don't get why people are saying DT are not prog because of their reliance on riffs. Are they kidding? "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight", "Close to the Edge", "Starless", "Echoes"? These are prog landmarks and they all have repeated riffs. Not to mention DT does develop theirs. Just listen to the Octavarium track. Despite whether you think it's good or not the main theme (flute at the beginning) is surprisingly not repeated much in every instance of its usage, and is developed several times along with other themes. And this is not just one instance.
 
I'm just saying. Opeth is definitely repetitive when it comes to riffs, but Dream Theater isn't, at least not necessarily.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:00
Originally posted by topofsm topofsm wrote:

I don't get why people are saying DT are not prog because of their reliance on riffs. Are they kidding? "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight", "Close to the Edge", "Starless", "Echoes"? These are prog landmarks and they all have repeated riffs. Not to mention DT does develop theirs. Just listen to the Octavarium track. Despite whether you think it's good or not the main theme (flute at the beginning) is surprisingly not repeated much in every instance of its usage, and is developed several times along with other themes. And this is not just one instance.
 
I'm just saying. Opeth is definitely repetitive when it comes to riffs, but Dream Theater isn't, at least not necessarily.

This too.  Have you guys -listened- to classic prog? Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:04
^ People have the same issue with Meshuggah, I've noticed. I've seen reviews where people make the claim that the riffs never change the whole song. Ridiculous. The changes are sometimes so subtle,a careless listener may miss it, but even besides those times, the riffs progress and change drastically quite often in this type of music.

Just because something is heavy doesn't mean it isn't developed or complex.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:07
Really, just because something's heavy has no bearing whatsoever on whatever complexity it may or may not possess. Big smile  I still rate Mindcrime very very highly.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:08

^Yeah, I agree with what you say. Of course Dream Theater's developments are far more blatant than Meshuggahs but still, they're both clearly there. I think people hear some relatively simpler distorted guitar riffs in "Pull Me Under" and assume that it's just a metal band with keyboards.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 20 2010 at 00:43
It's funny, a poll is starrted, with some determined options, but there's a strong preasure against those who don't vote for option 1.
 
But still 36% of the people who care enough about DT to even come here, have voted that they are not Progressive Rock (Almost 4 of each 10 members who care to vote in a DT poll is very high).
 
Note: Options 2, 3, 4 and 5  imply they are not a Progressive Rock band
 
I have made my mind and gone with N° 5, I honestly only find a few Prog elements.
 
Iván
 
BTW: Camel666, Pink Floyd was much more successful than DT and think they are Prog, almost the same goes for Kansas in the 70's.
 
___________________________
Disclaimer: If DT fans feel offended because I say DT is not the best band of the world or that Petrucci is not god or  I dare to have doubts about their Prog credentials or even worst dare to say that Yes, Genesis, ELP, Kansas, King Crimson, Phil Collins  (You may add 458 names more)  acted more mature in one or more situations, I'm sorry, I fall on my knees and ask forgiveness. CryCryCryCryCry
 
Also, if any of my words hurts their huge sensibility, I'm also sorry and will burn my fingers with acid not to write strong words again.
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 20 2010 at 08:02
            
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