DT... already a prog legend?

It would be childish to say "I know you don't want Prog Metal in your site, so we will leave", giving arguments to what you say is not.

LOL Not only to me

Iván

CCVP wrote: If anyone is wondering what this thread is about, lemme clarify it for you

I leave the Prog Archives for 24 hours, and I come back to find chaos has broken loose! And in a DT thread! Why am I not surprised? 

Kashmir75 wrote: I leave the Prog Archives for 24 hours, and I come back to find chaos has broken loose! And in a DT thread! Why am I not surprised?  This website isn't called the Yes/King Crimson/Genesis Appreciation Society, it's called the Prog Archives. There's room here for prog lovers of all stripes. Elitism and name-calling is one of the reasons I am sometimes too scared to come in here, and post on here. Purists would have you believe that good music stopped being recorded after 1980. I mean, I like the classic prog bands, but enough is enough. There's no need to bash DT fans.  DT have every right to be called a prog legend. They've worked hard over the past twenty years, battled against an uncaring mainstream and against fashion and pop culture trends. The photo recently of Rick Wakeman and Mike Portnoy at the Classic Rock awards cemented it all for me. If that's not a sign of their respect in the Prog world, what is? They'll probably never be respected by the metal fraternity (where they are still treated with some suspicion), so why not here?

If you're too scared to visit a music forum and post there I think you need to get out more. Seriously though, DT threads are notorious for getting heckles to rise within the community as they are just one of those bands that never seem to attract indifference (For me that's their single most redeeming feature)
I happen to empathise with Ivan's general view and although I have only heard about a third of the band's output, they've never once convinced me of immutable prog credentials (apart from some of their their covers of other band's material) I'm certainly not a metal fan but am happy to acknowledge the prog status of the likes of Opeth, Liquid Tension Experiment, Maudlin of the Well, Diablo Swing Orchestra, Borknagar (cos those are the few I'm familiar with)
Going back to my earlier post I was advised by Windhawk that this thread is not about likes and dislikes but concerned with 'musical understanding and perception' i.e. that tired and frayed old trump card that some people play that posits if you don't agree with the proposition, you do so by virtue of lack of understanding, objectivity and bringing your own tastes into play. Presumably if sufficient numbers hold the same opinion the latter miraculously mutates into fact ?
It also seems odd that you consider defining proof of the proposition the endorsement of a musician who has failed to release a single note worth a second of anyone's time for the last 30 years (Rick Wakeman - unless you count the new age Christian blancmange, the disingenuous fleecing of the Yes canon, bandwagon hopping faux new wave and the collaborations with Norman Wisdom of course)

I've never had a false nostalgia for the halycon 70's prog years and I too agree that great music continues to be produced post 1980 as you state. However, much of what I hear of contemporary music that attracts the prog label (of many genres) strikes me as being merely a reproduction of the ideas and values that cannot surely still be considered progressive 30 years hence ? It seems a no-brainer that as far as pushing metal into progressive related areas, DT are a virtual shoo-in re legendary status but all I can hear is technical complexity, speed, mediocre song-writing, virtuoso riffs and shallow lyrics* (*1 out of 5 don't make ya prog)

Please accept my apologies for being sincere.



Edited by ExittheLemming - February 18 2010 at 02:55

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Kashmir75 wrote: I leave the Prog Archives for 24 hours, and I come back to find chaos has broken loose! And in a DT thread! Why am I not surprised?  This website isn't called the Yes/King Crimson/Genesis Appreciation Society, it's called the Prog Archives. There's room here for prog lovers of all stripes. Elitism and name-calling is one of the reasons I am sometimes too scared to come in here, and post on here. Purists would have you believe that good music stopped being recorded after 1980. I mean, I like the classic prog bands, but enough is enough. There's no need to bash DT fans.  DT have every right to be called a prog legend. They've worked hard over the past twenty years, battled against an uncaring mainstream and against fashion and pop culture trends. The photo recently of Rick Wakeman and Mike Portnoy at the Classic Rock awards cemented it all for me. If that's not a sign of their respect in the Prog world, what is? They'll probably never be respected by the metal fraternity (where they are still treated with some suspicion), so why not here?   The problem here is that if any member asks a question, he must be ready to listen two possible answers: Yes or No.   If you don't want to receive an answer you don't like, then don't ask a question.   This is not a fan club, this is a DISCUSSION FORUM, a place where you come to DEBATE, if some people  are not ready to listen opinions they don't like, well, don't come.   I been called names, something I haven't done, I gave my opinion and my answer to the question,  I stand on it.   Nobody has bashed DT fans at all, simply some of us don't agree with the opinion that DT is a legend of Progressive Rock, live with this.   Iván

You've said multiple times that ELP's fans don't "play the victim", but DT's fans do, as evidenced by this...

Great, play the victim.....Tell that to ELP fans, an iconic band and beyond any doubt a legend of Prog,. that is attacked constantly, but their fans don't play the victim..

J-Man wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Nobody has bashed DT fans at all, simply some of us don't agree with the opinion that DT is a legend of Progressive Rock, live with this.   Iván     You've said multiple times that ELP's fans don't "play the victim", but DT's fans do, as evidenced by this...

Please J-Man, check your dictionary before posting.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 15:24

J-Man wrote: For the love of God Iván, Teo didn't threaten to leave the site because nobody likes DT. He threatened to leave because of circular discussions like this. Maybe saying that ELP fans are less "babyish" than DT fans (that's false anyway) isn't "bashing" in your opinion, but it isn't far from it. If you want to go around saying that ELP fans are ALWAYS okay with people bashing ELP, then go around saying that. I don't really care. It's a false assumption that shows a complete lack of knowledge. I don't need a dictionary for that.

1. Raff was verbally attacked and insultED for the addition of Iron Maiden...That's bashing.
2. A guy called Progger came here repeatedly  to say literally "Genesis is crap"...That's bashing
3. People has said in multiple forums that ELP is pure crap, only two membetrs left the site (Karny - who was banned- and Threefates)...That's bashing
4. People has said Rick Wakeman is guilty of the bad name of Prog....That's bashing

I said I'm not 100% sure DT is Prog....IS THAT BASHING??????????????????

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 15:45

Ok J-Man whatever you want.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 18 2010 at 16:01

Some people have questioned in the past what makes Dream Theater progressive, and whilst I think there are numerous reasons why they are innovative band, it all boils down to one concept. They are progressive metal, because nobody played metal like they did at the time. By 1992, their music contained an eclectic source of influences, meticulous rhythmic coordination, a highly respected level of instrumental virtuosity within the realms of metal, and a polish that I think was rarely heard in metal up until that point. They played an advanced game, and I&W started a chain reaction of clone albums. It remains today a phenomenon, as bands strive to replicate the sound.

So, that answers the 'prog' half of the equation for me. As for the legendary status, I think a lot of people have summed it up very well - their recognition in the mainstream, maintained musical integrity, sustained career, and the fact that so many who detest their music point to them as the benchmark of a widening sub-genre of progressive rock, all equate to an undeniable conclusion that the boys have reached the towering heights of revered, legitimate legends of prog.