Epignosis wrote: That doesn't matter in the least.  Why doesn't it? Simple: "Prog" doesn't sound like anything. Metal sounds like something.  Folk sounds like something.  Electronic sounds like something.  These genres can be prog or not.  Prog has little to do with sound and much more to do with composition. In other words, one could take a Dream Theater composition and do it in the style of, say, Genesis, and you'd still have a prog song. The method of delivery does not dilute the composition.

Slam me if you will (I'm fine with it) but.......to take your view, why could'nt I give the composition, words and give it to Lady Gaga,  Michael Jackson or Kanye West and have them record it in their style.....you are saying it would still be a prog song? If not then prog does have somekind of sound associated with it?

Catcher10 wrote: Epignosis wrote: That doesn't matter in the least.  Why doesn't it? Simple: "Prog" doesn't sound like anything. Metal sounds like something.  Folk sounds like something.  Electronic sounds like something.  These genres can be prog or not.  Prog has little to do with sound and much more to do with composition. In other words, one could take a Dream Theater composition and do it in the style of, say, Genesis, and you'd still have a prog song. The method of delivery does not dilute the composition. Slam me if you will (I'm fine with it) but.......to take your view, why could'nt I give the composition, words and give it to Lady Gaga,  Michael Jackson or Kanye West and have them record it in their style.....you are saying it would still be a prog song? If not then prog does have somekind of sound associated with it? (I love this forum...!!)

People like Lady Gaga don't really have a "style" so to speak, but just play whatever the label wants them to play, however the label wants them to play it.

With that said, I'm sure you could play a Michael Jackson, dance-like version of a Dream Theater song. The result probably wouldn't be very good, but you can do it. And there's no well in hell that Lady Gaga's going to play a 20-minute song

Damn...!!! I was away by an hour and I loose pretty much of the discussion... great to see this much of support to DT... It was about time... I felted very lonely with many bashers around this site...

Catcher10 wrote: Epignosis wrote: That doesn't matter in the least.  Why doesn't it? Simple: "Prog" doesn't sound like anything. Metal sounds like something.  Folk sounds like something.  Electronic sounds like something.  These genres can be prog or not.  Prog has little to do with sound and much more to do with composition. In other words, one could take a Dream Theater composition and do it in the style of, say, Genesis, and you'd still have a prog song. The method of delivery does not dilute the composition. Slam me if you will (I'm fine with it) but.......to take your view, why could'nt I give the composition, words and give it to Lady Gaga,  Michael Jackson or Kanye West and have them record it in their style.....you are saying it would still be a prog song? If not then prog does have somekind of sound associated with it? (I love this forum...!!)

You could.  And it would be prog. 

I think that DT haven't reach the status of  a prog legend.

They have great albums, surely they have. Maybe we have to ask what do we understand about the meaning of be a musical legend (or prog legend).

The Quiet One wrote: Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them.    You make a point for me.   If talking about Close to the Edge, you don't need to say a highest ratedSymphonic Album If you talk about DSOTM, you don't need to say highest rated Psych/Space Rock album. If you talk about Larks Tongues in Aspic, you don't need to say highest rated Eclectic album.   You mention them as PROG albums and it's enough..   When you talk about DT, you need to mention Prog Metal, because like it or not, Prog Metal is almost a different world than most Progressive Rock, a sub-genre for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners, with almost as much detractors as fans.   Their situation is absolutely different, they can be great, but if you are not a Metal listener, hardly you would like them, in the other cases I mentioned, it's enough to be a Prog listener to at least agree are icons of the genre.   Iván     Just because Prog Metal isn't Prog Rock, that doesn't mean that the Prog part is out or diminished.   What, because there's a limited group of listeners that enjoy Prog Metal it means it's less Prog or it can't fully be considered Prog, because you have to clarify that it's Prog Metal? If that's the case, then the subgenres RIO/Avant, Prog Electronic, Indo/Raga, Post Rock, and so on, can't be called ''Prog'' solely because they're "almost a different world that most Progressive Rock". What is ''most of Prog Rock" by the way? Symphonic?

Catcher10 wrote: jampa17 wrote: Damn...!!! I was away by an hour and I loose pretty much of the discussion... great to see this much of support to DT... It was about time... I felted very lonely with many bashers around this site...   I'd like to understand why people do not like Dream Theater? I saw one post once, they were slammed because they spell Theater as 'er' not 're'...Really???!!!! Comeonnnneeee! Then I read that their lyrics are not good, singing is no good, Rudess is not the prefered keyboardist...blah, blah..My only complaint is I wish Portnoy would STOP TRYING TO SING!!! Play drums and leave it at that. I hope Neil Peart never starts singing...   To me its personal if you don't like a band..but to slam them is kinda bad taste. They are very talented musicians. Do they make a record once in awhile that some will not like...sure they will. I happen to enjoy Systematic Chaos very much...most people do not. I don't care for Awake much at all...most people like it! But I am not going to slam Awake because I don't think I have the right to slam art/music/vision....We should never slam Progressive bands....we should enjoy the fact that we have something to look forward to rather than another Top 40 hit and a video on MTV.

Don't forget about this one

jampa17 wrote: Damn...!!! I was away by an hour and I loose pretty much of the discussion... great to see this much of support to DT... It was about time... I felted very lonely with many bashers around this site...

Whoa whoa whoa, let's not get too hasty here. Just because we support DT's status as a legend doesn't mean we support DT

Anyway, I actually think that Ivan has a point. DT isn't really, I suppose you could say transcendental. It's not that being prog metal makes them less prog, but it's more that their music hasn't really reached the point where it's a universal staple of the genre. As stated earlier, the top two Prog Metal albums are DT by a landslide, but when you look at the top albums of all time, they can't even crack the top 20 - the highest is Images and Words at #35. Compare this to how significantly lesser known bands such as PFM and Harmonium occupy spots 9 and 11, respectively.

Now there's definitely an argument to be made in defense of DT here, that because of their popularity they're inevitably going to receive all sorts of negative reviews as well. But it still seems to indicate that Dream Theater aren't tremendously notable outside of their immediate sphere of influence, musically speaking. Just because a political candidate has captured one or two demographics doesn't mean he's representative of the whole nation, and I feel like that's what's going on here.

That being said, I still think they're deserving of the legendary status, but more because of the gargantuan impact they had on reviving prog in the mainstream, rather than the music itself.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: The Quiet One wrote:   But you are saying this:   "When you talk about DT, you need to mention Prog Metal, because like it or not, Prog Metal is almost a different world than most Progressive Rock, a sub-genre for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners"   What's the meaning of that, then if it isn't that you consider Prog Metal not actually the Prog Rock that most people listen thus they cannot be Prog legends?    Please. do you even read what you quote?   Your statement doesn't ,make sense   I call them Prog Metal (I'm accepting the Prog status) A few hours ago you didn't seem so sure: "I would never doubt that bands like Symphony X or Pain of Salvation belong here, because those are real Prog Metal bands for me, but if you ask me about DT....I'm not sure, tend to believe yes, but not sure." What changed your mind, eh?   2. I say they are a sub-genre oif¨Prog.   Yes, but you give it less significance meaning that they're not Prog legends because they're just for "for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners" What you're meaning there is that if a Prog band is listened by a smaller group than those from the more accessible and popular Prog bands, then they can't be considered Prog legends? When it comes to those popular Prog bands you say: "You mention them as PROG albums and it's enough.." Prog is widely known as Progressive Rock but that doesn't ommit that there are other kinds of Prog like Jazz Fusion, Indo/Raga, Prog Electronic, Avant/RIO and those can(and have) deliver equally significant Prog bands and lots of them are legends now: Frank Zappa, Henry Cow, Mahavishnu Orchestra, Tangerine Dream, etc.   3. I say it's a Sub-genre for a limited group of PROG LISTENERS (Please, I'm talking about Prog Metal fans). I'm not sure what you mean here. You're saying that only Prog Metal fans listen to Dream Theater? (just a simple question)   You understand what you want to understand, from my first post I said I believe DT is Prog but I'm not sure, I clearly stated that Prog Metal is Prog in each and every post   Read above.   ....Don't just read the last post, try to follow a thread before you try to understand what I said....Or at lñeast try to follow the sentences in one post and understand them.   I followed the thread since the beginning of it, you just seem to consider Prog Legends exclusively for popular and accessible Prog bands: Genesis, Yes, Tull and Floyd. In which in the case of Floyd, I can use the same arguments you used against Dream Theater's legitimation as Prog Legends :   They are not exclusively Prog, A very high percentage of Progheads, don't even consider them Prog They don't have an album that is considered a definitive gem of Prog. Iván BTW; Yes, I consider that Prog Metal is a sub-genre of Prog for a more limited universe of Prog listeners than most of the other sub-genres. MOST of the other sub-genres?:   (239 ratings) WR = 4.4361 Per Un Amico Premiata Forneria Marconi (238 ratings) WR = 4.2645 Hot Rats Frank Zappa (134 ratings) WR = 4.2219 Phaedra Tangerine Dream (599 ratings) WR = 4.5696 Thick As A Brick Jethro Tull (118 ratings) WR = 4.0463 Lift Your Skinny Fists Like Antennas To Heaven Godspeed You! Black Emperor (357 ratings) WR = 4.1360 Script For A Jester's Tear Marillion (197 ratings) WR = 4.4194 Birds of Fire Mahavishnu Orchestra (135 ratings) WR = 3.8064 Tago Mago Can (30 ratings) WR = 3.8577 Natural Elements Shakti With John McLaughlin (457 ratings) WR = 4.2653 Moving Pictures Rush (234 ratings) WR = 4.2240 Crime of the Century Supertramp 305 ratings) WR = 4.2218 In The Land Of Grey And Pink Caravan (667 ratings) WR = 4.2032 Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory Dream Theater Prog Metal(without taking in consideration it's two seperate sections) is probably the most rated and reviewed sub-genre after Symph and Eclectic, that does imply that it is the most listened sub-genre and the one with more fans after Symph and Eclectic. Not sure if it's ''a more limited universe of Prog listeners than most of the other sub-genres"

I would definitely state that Dream Theater is a legendary prog band. They have released a very great discography overall, even some weaker albums have great moments. They have grown to have a huge fan base without any radio play, have had members be in very talented side projects, that have included prog masters. They have tackled the concept album, the song cycle, the epic, the double disc, all with success in terms of execution and overall reviews. All of the members are talented at thier instruments. I can't think of how many times I've been blown away by Portnoy's Drumming. Petrucci's guitar work. Myungs bass and both Moore's and Ruddess's keyboard skills. Like every band that has already been considered legends, DT shares the downfalls of those bands too. Yes's Topographic oceans was very ambitious and stirred some fans away, so was six degrees of inter turbulence. The singing has slipped in recent years, but that happens when you tour constantly and have been around for awhile, hell DT has been around for twenty years already, ever notice how Neal Morses voice has slipped, but hell The Whirlwind is still a great album. Dream Theater may not be perfect, but no band is. But one can definitely see how they have influence prog metal, helped various bands, remained skilled musicians, and released very ambitious, complex and overall quality work. Dream Theater has done all of this with no radio support in a genre that is already ignored by radio, and they will continue to move forward with the same dedication.