DT... already a prog legend?

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them.    When you talk about DT, you need to mention Prog Metal, because like it or not, Prog Metal is almost a different world than most Progressive Rock, a sub-genre for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners, with almost as much detractors as fans.   Their situation is absolutely different, they can be great, but if you are not a Metal listener, hardly you would like them, in the other cases I mentioned, it's enough to be a Prog listener to at least agree are icons of the genre.   Iván

That doesn't matter in the least.  Why doesn't it?

Simple: "Prog" doesn't sound like anything.

Metal sounds like something.  Folk sounds like something.  Electronic sounds like something.  These genres can be prog or not.  Prog has little to do with sound and much more to do with composition.

In other words, one could take a Dream Theater composition and do it in the style of, say, Genesis, and you'd still have a prog song.

The method of delivery does not dilute the composition.

harmonium.ro wrote: The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them.

1. If talking about Close to the Edge, you don't need to say a highest ratedSymphonic Album
2. If you talk about DSOTM, you don't need to say highest rated Psych/Space Rock album.
3. If you talk about Larks Tongues in Aspic, you don't need to say highest rated Eclectic album.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Epignosis wrote: 1. Genesis, Yes, Kansas, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Jethro Tull, and ELP are not exclusively prog, so I don't see how this matters. 2. Which "progheads?"  And what percentage?  And why does this matter? 3. According to whom?  And what exactly is a "definitive gem?"  I believe the case of DT is different, all the polls show it,...Yes it matters IMO, if there's no agreement about them being Prog, well..they can hardly be a Proig legend I mentioned threads and names According to me  But please check the list of top Prog albums, it gives you an indication. Iván

I don't think it matters if there's "agreement" or not- the music can speak for itself.

More than half of ELP's music is not prog, yet for some reason, they are regarded as prog legends (I myself wouldn't debate this- just pointing it out)- pick any song at random, and you will likely get a terrible pop song.

But perhaps you are not listening to much Dream Theater, my friend?    I see that of the 667 ratings and reviews of Metropolis Part 2: Scenes from a Memory, yours is not one of them-  I'd be interested to read what you'd have to say.

Better yet, pick on Images & Words, since I don't like that album. 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Epignosis wrote: 1. Genesis, Yes, Kansas, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Jethro Tull, and ELP (to name the "legends") are not exclusively prog, so I don't see how this matters. 2. Which "progheads?"  And what percentage?  And why does this matter? 3. According to whom?  And what exactly is a "definitive gem?"  I believe the case of DT is different, all the polls show it,...Yes it matters IMO, if there's no agreement about them being Prog, well..they can hardly be a Proig legend I mentioned threads and names According to me  But please check the list of top Prog albums, it gives you an indication. Iván

1. There is an agreement that you don't agree with (if that makes sense)
2. They're irrelevent.
3. That definitely does give us an indication - against you. The 2 top rated progressive metal albums are BOTH Dream Theater, and the next closest is pretty far behind.

Epignosis wrote: 1. Genesis, Yes, Kansas, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Jethro Tull, and ELP (to name the "legends") are not exclusively prog, so I don't see how this matters. 2. Which "progheads?"  And what percentage?  And why does this matter? 3. According to whom?  And what exactly is a "definitive gem?"

1. I believe the case of DT is different, all the polls show it,...Yes it matters IMO, if there's no agreement about them being Prog, well..they can hardly be a Proig legend
2. I mentioned threads and names
3. According to me  But please check the list of top Prog albums, it gives you an indication.

Iván 

Mind_Drive wrote: I think they should be in the group of prog legends for the reason you mentioned! the newer genre of prog metal needs to have at least one band considered to be one of progs giant´s.. and wich band is more qualified for this honor than DT? so DT is a legend, at least for me

legend or no legend- they are great!

One thing is sure. Dream Theatre manage to stir emotions and trigger deviating opinions!
I think that alone makes them quite legendary.

Ivan,

Dream Theater IS a progressive metal band, and it's almost absurd to deny that. If they aren't progressive metal what is? It's alright that you don't think they're legends, but to deny that the leaders of prog-metal since 1992 aren't even prog is pretty questionable.

That was my argument, and you are here enough time to remember how many members have said DT is not Prog (I never did), people like Certifi1ed or The Baldies among many others pointing this is not lying, it's presenting an argument....Some fans of Progressive Rock (Again not me), believe DT is not Prog.

Keep in mind that Certif1ed believes that Metallica is a FULL-BLOWN prog metal band, yet he will deny Opeth and Dream Theater as being progressive metal. We shouldn't rely on an opinion like that.

Great, play the victim.....Tell that to ELP fans, an iconic band and beyond any doubt a legend of Prog,. that is attacked constantly, but their fans don't play the victim..

This is a very false statement. This is essentially saying that all Dream Theater fans play the victim, but ABSOLUTELY NO ELP fans play the victim?

We get it Ivan - you hate Dream Theater, and we're aware of that. But that doesn't mean that you have to attack their fanbase AND deny that they're even progressive (which is rather absurd). How can Symphony X and Pain of Salvation be progressive metal, but Dream Theater is not?

-Jeff

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:   I see it different, I see Genesis at least as 2 different bands that share the name for economic reasons.   Until Hackett left they are a Prog legend   From there on, they were a Pop/Prog legend.   Iván.

Dream Theater (DT) may not be my cup of T, but I consider the band to be a Progressive Metal legend (legend in the sense of the OP), Magma a Zeuhl legend, Miles Davis a Fusion and jazz legend, Soft Machine a Canterbury Scene legend, Henry Cow a RIO legend etc.  ELP is also not really my cup of tea these days, but a legend of Progressive Rock -- certainly.  I do think that DT is Prog, and I haven't noted that questioned in the past, though I have seen questions raised about how truly progressive the band is.  EDIT: Actually, I have seen it questioned whether Progressive Metal is truly Prog, but I don't make the distinction some do between metal and rock (I look at metal as subset of rock music -- or hard rock music).

Now the fabled Stin Kee is a different kind of legend (who never really received legendary status as his faux exploits are so unknown to all but this writer, so unlike the legendary King Arthur who may have existed in some form or may not have existed but gained mythical status).

Stin Kee -- Progressive Flatulist

The legendary Stin Kee is practically (myself excluded) unknown in progressive music circles.  Art is three-quarters fart, and he knew how to put the fart in art.  He was a man before his time, and should be recognised as a leading figure in Proto-Progressive Flatulism (it's a shame that Fart Rock is not a recognised category at this site -- too anal perhaps).

I hope to rectalfy this situation with a glorious epic production shot in smell-O-vision that pays tribute to a this great and inspirational Canadian entertainer that has indirectly inspired such bands as Air Supply and Visible Wind.  Truly, he is the wind beneath my wings.

First off; some background historical info.

A Fragrant Art

In the 1950s, the advent of home television led to declining cinema audiences. In a desperate search for gimmicks to lure people back to the cinema, movie theatres experimented with a whole range of gimmicks, from tremOrama (which was on shaky ground) to Smell-O-Rama. With Smell-O-Rama, the odours were circulated through the air ventilation units. This technique was first used in the Mickey Mouse cult classic, "Who Cut the Cheese? " (perhaps DT will dispense with LaBrie at some time at which time a documentary will be made called "Why Cut LaBrie?").

Part 1: The Life and Times of Stin Kee: aka the Rise and Fall and Rise and Fall Again of a Canadian Legend

Stin Keizerensteinemen was born in Eastern Europe in 1892 to a poor gypsy circus family. They migrated to British Columbia, Canada in 1896, anglicized their family name to Kee, and quickly found success on the Vancouver vaudeville circuit, delighting dozens.

Stin had a troubled childhood; he suffered from severe gastro-intestinal problems. However, the family used Stin's ailment to their advantage. In 1898 they brought him into the show, where he performed as a flatulence artist. Stin Kee's performance became widely renowned, and people would travel from as far away as Burnaby (a municipality about a ten minute drive from downtown Vancouver) to catch his act. As Stin's fame increased, he dumped his family, took on a solo career, and entertained thousands at venues such as Carnegie Hall, the Royal Albert Hall, the Commodore Ballroom, and Zellers.

Unfortunately, with the advent of moving pictures and its increasing popularity, people became less interested in vaudeville. Stin Kee's career languished and his health deteriorated.

In the 1940s, with the popularity of Glen Miller, Stin Kee reinvented himself as the big band leader of Stin Kee's Big Wind Orchestra to rave reviews.

However, the pressure of performing became too much for Stin Kee's intestines, and he was confined to hospital for many years in a well ventilated room.

Never-the-less, he managed to make some progressive should-be classic covers during his bed-ridden period, including a backside version of Bach's "Air on the G-String" as well as explosive versions of both Focus' and ELP's "Eruption."  It's not surprising, as farting around is common to progressive Rock.

Despite his poor health, Stin Kee lived into his nineties and died an old fart.


Part 2: The Return of Stin Kee: Get your stinkin' beaver paws off me! aka The Beaver Warriors

Now for some speculation:This hasn't happened yet, of course, but I think it's fair to speculate with recent developments such as GMB (genetically modified beavers) that this might happen at some time. I propose this prognostication as a dramatization of probable future events.  At the very least, one could consider this a beaver cautionary tale.

The year is 2018 and most of the world's petroleum deposits have dried up. The world's economies and governments have collapsed, and territories are ruled by ruthless semi-intelligent beavers ... the humans are enslaved. Dam those beavers! The beavers, who are in control of the last remaining and almost depleted petroleum reserves, rule the world by recklessly driving around in fast cars and motorcycles -- not only does this terrify and shame the human males into submission, but the beavers fast cars ensure that they pick up all the hottest chicks...

Whilst chewing through a few old books, a group of bogus beaver historians encounter the story of Stin Kee, and, for no reason whatsoever -- other than they find anything to do with flatulence hilarious and they like to hang around in beaver bars -- they tell a group of beavers they met at a bar about it. By a most extraordinarily convenient, and ridiculous plot device, the beavers they inform just happen to be semi-brilliant rogue scientists who specialise in alternative fuel sources. The semi-smart beaver scientists develop a hypothesis which turns out to be completely wrong, but that's another story.

... skip six months and fifty pages to The Gas Chamber...

With the help of the historians they find Stin Kee's air-tight tomb where he lies perfectly preserved in his own gasses. Using semi-super beaver science they rejuvenate and revive him. They force him to power a really fast natural gas vehicle. He who controls the gas gets the chicks (or more aptly beavers) and rules the world!

When the other beavers see how fast the rogue beavers can drive, they fall off their feet in wonder and fear, and naturally they pledge allegiance to the their new masters superior torque and power. However, Stin Kee eventually kills his enslavers (the details are unimportant, but it involves removing his tail-pipe) and comes to rule the world and get all the hottest chicks. And he lives happily ever after.

The end! Or is it? We can only hope.


*Notes: Stin Kee is a "legend," in much the same way that King Arthur is, and even more like he isn't. And like the legend of King Arthur of Camelot, the legend of Stin Kee Fartur of Toot-a-lot is shrouded in an air of mystery. But unlike Arthur, the legend of Stin Kee is also shrouded in an air of stench. And that's what makes him so special! He deserves a big-budget smell-o-rama feature film as a tribute to all those who have lifted our spirits with their sweet effluvia.

copyright Logan Productions, all rights reserved

No beavers were harmed in the making of this story.

So, assuming Stin Kee existed, would there be any case for his inclusion in the archives as a Progressive fartist?  I say no, especially because his cover songs stunk!



Edited by Logan - February 16 2010 at 12:55