| Author |
 Topic Search  Topic Options
|
Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
 Posted: February 16 2010 at 15:14 |
 The T wrote:
^Thank you Ivan. You've just made it clear that you don't want metal in your site. Of course, if you say DT is not prog-metal, then we pretty much can eliminate a whole subgenre. As I assume that if you had heard some extreme/technical metal you would say the same, probably we might as well do what I've always though was the sanest thing to do: Partition the site.
|
Please don't change what I said
- I never said DT is not Prog Metal:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
I'm not sure if DT is Prog, but as I say, I give them the benefit of the doubt, |
- I never said I don't want Prog Metal in the site, if you read my reviews I gave strong ratings to some albums
- Now, I do believe Tech Extreme Metal and Experimental Prog Metal are way too much, I don't deny it, with Prog Metal would be enough for me, but still took the time to rate Still Life by Opeth, which I found very good, except for the growls as I said in my review, that's why a 3 or 4 stars album went down to 2 stars IMO.
- I would never doubt that bands like Symphony X or Pain of Salvation belong here, because those are real Prog Metal bands for me, but if you ask me about DT....I'm not sure, tend to believe yes, but not sure.
Do please, read what I say, and what I said is that it pisses me when people write that they will go with the real open minded people only because somebody disagrees with them.
The T wrote:
One thing is to say DT are not legends... I agree (time hasn't passed yet). But to deny their importance in prog.. in prtogressive metall... that almost reeks of ignorance. |
Please, READ WHAT I SAID:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
-
They are not exclusively Prog, the Metal component (and fanbase) is at least as strong..
-
A very high percentage of Progheads, don't even consider them Prog
-
They don't have an album that is considered a definitive gem of Progressive Rock.
|
That was my argument, and you are here enough time to remember how many members have said DT is not Prog (I never did), people like Certifi1ed or The Baldies among many others pointing this is not lying, it's presenting an argument....Some fans of Progressive Rock (Again not me), believe DT is not Prog.
That's why I said and that's one of the reasons I believe Dream Theater is not accepted enough to be considered a legend of Progressive Rock.
So please, stick to what I said, and if you want to call me ignorant, do it for what I said, not for what you dreamed I said.
The T wrote:
Damn there was a reason I only came to this forum for non-musical discussions nowadays... It's clear people here don't want us in this website.
|
Great, play the victim.....Tell that to ELP fans, an iconic band and beyond any doubt a legend of Prog,. that is attacked constantly, but their fans don't play the victim..
First you invent things I never said
Now you claim people don't want you here.
Nobody has said DT is a bad band or they don't belong here, some people said "They (me included) don't believe Dream Theater is not a Preog legend, maybe a Metal legend, but still not achieved that status in my opinion.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 16 2010 at 15:19
|
|
|
 |
J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:00 |
Ivan, Dream Theater IS a progressive metal band, and it's almost absurd to deny that. If they aren't progressive metal what is? It's alright that you don't think they're legends, but to deny that the leaders of prog-metal since 1992 aren't even prog is pretty questionable.
| That was my argument, and you are here enough time to remember how
many members have said DT is not Prog (I never did), people like
Certifi1ed or The Baldies among many others pointing this is not lying, it's presenting an argument....Some fans of Progressive Rock (Again not me), believe DT is not Prog. |
Keep in mind that Certif1ed believes that Metallica is a FULL-BLOWN prog metal band, yet he will deny Opeth and Dream Theater as being progressive metal. We shouldn't rely on an opinion like that.
Great, play the victim.....Tell that to ELP fans, an iconic band
and beyond any doubt a legend of Prog,. that is attacked constantly,
but their fans don't play the victim.. |
This is a very false statement. This is essentially saying that all Dream Theater fans play the victim, but ABSOLUTELY NO ELP fans play the victim? We get it Ivan - you hate Dream Theater, and we're aware of that. But that doesn't mean that you have to attack their fanbase AND deny that they're even progressive (which is rather absurd). How can Symphony X and Pain of Salvation be progressive metal, but Dream Theater is not? -Jeff |
|
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:11 |
*sigh*
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
-
They are not exclusively Prog, the Metal component (and fanbase) is at least as strong..
-
A very high percentage of Progheads, don't even consider them Prog
-
They don't have an album that is considered a definitive gem of Progressive Rock.
|
In turn:
1. Genesis, Yes, Kansas, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Jethro Tull, and ELP are not exclusively prog, so I don't see how this matters. 2. Which "progheads?" And what percentage? And why does this matter? 3. According to whom? And what exactly is a "definitive gem?"
Edited by Epignosis - February 16 2010 at 16:36
|
|
|
|
Bonnek
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 01 2009
Location: Belgium
Status: Offline
Points: 4515
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:17 |
|
One thing is sure. Dream Theatre manage to stir emotions and trigger deviating opinions!
I think that alone makes them quite legendary.
|
|
clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:25 |
 One nation, under civil war...
|
|
|
|
pr@halfpastfour
Forum Groupie
Joined: December 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 93
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:32 |
Mind_Drive wrote:
I think they should be in the group of prog legends for the reason you mentioned!
the newer genre of prog metal needs to have at least one band considered to be one of progs giant´s.. and wich band is more qualified for this honor than DT?
so DT is a legend, at least for me 
|
legend or no legend- they are great!
|
|
www.halfpastfour.com
http://www.paperplanemusic.ca/
|
|
snobb
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: August 20 2009
Location: Vilnius,LT,EU
Status: Offline
Points: 3578
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:35 |
Bonnek wrote:
One thing is sure. Dream Theatre manage to stir emotions and trigger deviating opinions!
I think that alone makes them quite legendary.
|
 Possibly the problem is not DT music itself, but DT cult as behavior, point of view,etc.
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:38 |
Epignosis wrote:
1. Genesis, Yes, Kansas, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Jethro Tull, and ELP (to name the "legends") are not exclusively prog, so I don't see how this matters.
2. Which "progheads?" And what percentage? And why does this matter?
3. According to whom? And what exactly is a "definitive gem?" |
- I believe the case of DT is different, all the polls show it,...Yes it matters IMO, if there's no agreement about them being Prog, well..they can hardly be a Proig legend
- I mentioned threads and names
- According to me But please check the list of top Prog albums, it gives you an indication.
Iván
|
|
|
|
harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:39 |
The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them. 
|
|
J-Man
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 07 2008
Location: Philadelphia,PA
Status: Offline
Points: 7826
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:47 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
1. Genesis, Yes, Kansas, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Jethro Tull, and ELP (to name the "legends") are not exclusively prog, so I don't see how this matters.
2. Which "progheads?" And what percentage? And why does this matter?
3. According to whom? And what exactly is a "definitive gem?" |
- I believe the case of DT is different, all the polls show it,...Yes it matters IMO, if there's no agreement about them being Prog, well..they can hardly be a Proig legend
- I mentioned threads and names
- According to me But please check the list of top Prog albums, it gives you an indication.
Iván |
1. There is an agreement that you don't agree with (if that makes sense)  2. They're irrelevent. 3. That definitely does give us an indication - against you. The 2 top rated progressive metal albums are BOTH Dream Theater, and the next closest is pretty far behind.
|
|
|
|
clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:49 |
|
|
|
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:50 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
1. Genesis, Yes, Kansas, King Crimson, Gentle Giant, Rush, Porcupine Tree, Jethro Tull, and ELP are not exclusively prog, so I don't see how this matters.
2. Which "progheads?" And what percentage? And why does this matter?
3. According to whom? And what exactly is a "definitive gem?" |
- I believe the case of DT is different, all the polls show it,...Yes it matters IMO, if there's no agreement about them being Prog, well..they can hardly be a Proig legend
- I mentioned threads and names
- According to me But please check the list of top Prog albums, it gives you an indication.
Iván |
I don't think it matters if there's "agreement" or not- the music can speak for itself.
More than half of ELP's music is not prog, yet for some reason, they are regarded as prog legends (I myself wouldn't debate this- just pointing it out)- pick any song at random, and you will likely get a terrible pop song.
But perhaps you are not listening to much Dream Theater, my friend? I see that of the 667 ratings and reviews of Metropolis Part 2: Scenes from a Memory, yours is not one of them- I'd be interested to read what you'd have to say.
Better yet, pick on Images & Words, since I don't like that album.
|
|
|
|
Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17847
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:52 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them. |
Legends of "prog-metal"......much closer than the title of OP is asking. I think initially the responses were aimed at Progressive in general...That's why there are references to Pink Floyd, Yes and Genesis.
In the genre of prog-metal they are clearly NUMBER ONE.
Why do you suppose it is they get so much grief on this site....Grant it I don't Forum on any other music sites, so maybe I am the ignorant one??  I read a lot of reviews and even though I don't base music purchases by them, I do find the information interesting. Pretty much everything I have read is very positive about DT releases.....One source I pay ZERO attention to is Rolling Stone Magazine....Maybe that's where all the bashing is coming from...dunno
|
|
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 16:53 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them. |
You make a point for me.
- If talking about Close to the Edge, you don't need to say a highest ratedSymphonic Album
- If you talk about DSOTM, you don't need to say highest rated Psych/Space Rock album.
- If you talk about Larks Tongues in Aspic, you don't need to say highest rated Eclectic album.
You mention them as PROG albums and it's enough..
When you talk about DT, you need to mention Prog Metal, because like it or not, Prog Metal is almost a different world than most Progressive Rock, a sub-genre for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners, with almost as much detractors as fans.
Their situation is absolutely different, they can be great, but if you are not a Metal listener, hardly you would like them, in the other cases I mentioned, it's enough to be a Prog listener to at least agree are icons of the genre.
Iván
|
|
|
|
The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 17:00 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them. |
You make a point for me.
- If talking about Close to the Edge, you don't need to say a highest ratedSymphonic Album
- If you talk about DSOTM, you don't need to say highest rated Psych/Space Rock album.
- If you talk about Larks Tongues in Aspic, you don't need to say highest rated Eclectic album.
You mention them as PROG albums and it's enough..
When you talk about DT, you need to mention Prog Metal, because like it or not, Prog Metal is almost a different world than most Progressive Rock, a sub-genre for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners, with almost as much detractors as fans.
Their situation is absolutely different, they can be great, but if you are not a Metal listener, hardly you would like them, in the other cases I mentioned, it's enough to be a Prog listener to at least agree are icons of the genre.
Iván
|
Just because Prog Metal isn't Prog Rock, that doesn't mean that the Prog part is out or diminished.
What, because there's a limited group of listeners that enjoy Prog Metal it means it's less Prog or it can't fully be considered Prog, because you have to clarify that it's Prog Metal?  If that's the case, then the subgenres RIO/Avant, Prog Electronic, Indo/Raga, Post Rock, and so on, can't be called ''Prog'' solely because they're "almost a different world that most Progressive Rock". What is ''most of Prog Rock" by the way? Symphonic?
Edited by The Quiet One - February 16 2010 at 17:06
|
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 17:01 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them. |
When you talk about DT, you need to mention Prog Metal, because like it or not, Prog Metal is almost a different world than most Progressive Rock, a sub-genre for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners, with almost as much detractors as fans.
Their situation is absolutely different, they can be great, but if you are not a Metal listener, hardly you would like them, in the other cases I mentioned, it's enough to be a Prog listener to at least agree are icons of the genre.
Iván
|
That doesn't matter in the least. Why doesn't it?
Simple: "Prog" doesn't sound like anything.
Metal sounds like something. Folk sounds like something. Electronic sounds like something. These genres can be prog or not. Prog has little to do with sound and much more to do with composition.
In other words, one could take a Dream Theater composition and do it in the style of, say, Genesis, and you'd still have a prog song.
The method of delivery does not dilute the composition.
|
|
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 17:08 |
The Quiet One wrote:
Just because Prog Metal isn't Prog Rock, that doesn't mean that the Prog part is out or less.
What, because there's a limited group of listeners that enjoy Prog Metal it means it's less Prog? If that's the case, then the subgenres RIO/Avant, Prog Electronic, Indo/Raga, Post Rock, and so on, aren't Prog by your definition. |
I will place big fonts, because despite I said it repeatedly, seems people tend to change my words
- For God's sake..I never said Prog Metal is not Prog
- I never said DT is not Prog
- I only said I don't believe Dream Theater is a Progressive Rock Legend.
I also said that Prog Metal is a different world inside Prog universe....Please, they are the only casethat has three sub-genres.
Exclusively a Prog Metal legend...most likely, probably a Metal legend, but not a Prog legend as the started asked.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - February 16 2010 at 17:12
|
|
|
|
The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 17:08 |
Epignosis wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them. |
When you talk about DT, you need to mention Prog Metal, because like it or not, Prog Metal is almost a different world than most Progressive Rock, a sub-genre for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners, with almost as much detractors as fans.
Their situation is absolutely different, they can be great, but if you are not a Metal listener, hardly you would like them, in the other cases I mentioned, it's enough to be a Prog listener to at least agree are icons of the genre.
Iván
|
That doesn't matter in the least. Why doesn't it?
Simple: "Prog" doesn't sound like anything.
Metal sounds like something. Folk sounds like something. Electronic sounds like something. These genres can be prog or not. Prog has little to do with sound and much more to do with composition.
In other words, one could take a Dream Theater composition and do it in the style of, say, Genesis, and you'd still have a prog song.
The method of delivery does not dilute the composition.
|
Definitely, but according to Iván, just because you have to mention that 'method of delivery' and not solely Prog, then it's definitely not the "Prog that abounds" thus not really Prog.
|
|
Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 17:14 |
The Quiet One wrote:
Definitely, but according to Iván, just because you have to mention that 'method of delivery' and not solely Prog, then it's definitely not the "Prog that abounds" thus not really Prog. |
Read ,my previous post
NEVER SAID PROG METAL IS NOT PROG
FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!!!!
Iván
|
|
|
|
harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
|
Posted: February 16 2010 at 17:14 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
The two all time highest rated prog-metal albums on PA are by Dream Theater, but I suppose that's not "definitive gem" enough if you don't like them. |
You make a point for me.
- If talking about Close to the Edge, you don't need to say a highest ratedSymphonic Album
- If you talk about DSOTM, you don't need to say highest rated Psych/Space Rock album.
- If you talk about Larks Tongues in Aspic, you don't need to say highest rated Eclectic album.
You mention them as PROG albums and it's enough..
When you talk about DT, you need to mention Prog Metal, because like it or not, Prog Metal is almost a different world than most Progressive Rock, a sub-genre for a limited group of Progressive Rock listeners, with almost as much detractors as fans.
Their situation is absolutely different, they can be great, but if you are not a Metal listener, hardly you would like them, in the other cases I mentioned, it's enough to be a Prog listener to at least agree are icons of the genre.
Iván
|
I don't really understand your point Ivan. Still if we're talking about Genesis, YES, etc., I would like to point out that the "legendary" status in Symphonic Prog, Eclectic Prog or Space Rock is shared by many great bands, DT have contributed to the creation of a genre and have dominated it in a way which no other major bad that you mention from the 70s ever did with their own genre. That is why I think that even though I don't like their music, their legendary status is maybe even stronger than that of the many of the classic bands.
|
|
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
DT... already a prog legend?
