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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 08:38
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm a natural pessimist so a bad flip-chart is never going to convince me of anything. Word-of-mouth perpetuated the success of Part The Second, but it did not start it - without the initial impetus given by their prior history and Toby Driver's (cult) status that word of mouth would not have propagated far. If KD only drew 100 people at their London gig then that was result of venue size rather than low popularity - Blue Lambency Downward was available in every HMV I looked in when it was released.
 



My view is the perfect opposite: they have a cult following and their album albums are well distributed, still they couldn't fill a club in London (!). That makes them pretty underground to me.


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...and that is basically my point - you have to do something. Just sitting back and assuming this data will last for ever is a mistake.


It always was like that, just the speed of the process is indeed higher. From my own experience the CD is the medium with the longest life expectation. My cassettes and vinyls are the best example for me. But if we speak of digital releases...


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
If an album gets forgotten it will disappear 10 times quicker in electronic form than ever it did in hard-copy. When a file can be deleted irrevocably at the click of mouse, or by a malicious virus, or simply by a hardware failure, or by an OS crash that's one thing, but when finding or recovering that data relies on something as tenuous as the Internet then it becomes even more ephemeral since the data is only as permanent as the server it is stored on and the links to it.

 


... then you are very correct and this is a very important issue. I've witnessed the death of much online information due to dead links, unpaid hosting, lack of interest of the initial source.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 11:07
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

I'm a natural pessimist so a bad flip-chart is never going to convince me of anything. Word-of-mouth perpetuated the success of Part The Second, but it did not start it - without the initial impetus given by their prior history and Toby Driver's (cult) status that word of mouth would not have propagated far. If KD only drew 100 people at their London gig then that was result of venue size rather than low popularity - Blue Lambency Downward was available in every HMV I looked in when it was released.
 

My view is the perfect opposite: they have a cult following and their album albums are well distributed, still they couldn't fill a club in London (!). That makes them pretty underground to me.
That's more an indictment of stay-at-home fans (and the subject of my previous Blog: Live Prog-rock is Dying) Wink
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

...and that is basically my point - you have to do something. Just sitting back and assuming this data will last for ever is a mistake.


It always was like that, just the speed of the process is indeed higher. From my own experience the CD is the medium with the longest life expectation. My cassettes and vinyls are the best example for me. But if we speak of digital releases...
Like vinyl, glass pressed CDs (and DVDs) are a mechanical format so the data they contain will not degrade, however the aluminium layer that reflects the read-laser is prone to degradation (so called CD rot) if the seal between the acrylic and the aluminium is porous - the predicted lifespan of CD is anything between 10 and 50 years. CDRs are an electronic format - the data is burnt into a dye layer - over time the data will degrade through exposure to light - no one in the data storage business will rate CDR more than 2 years - I'm sure all of us can recount stories of CDs and CDRs that play on one system but not on another, or of CDs that now skip and stick even though there is nothing apparently wrong with them physically. The next hurdle to overcome for CD to last another 26 years is for the transports (ie players) to still be available - has anyone got a 1984 Sony or Philips CD player still in working order? If downloads replace CD in the near future (as is currently predicted) then the player will last a few years after that, but forever? No.
 
Magnetic media is the best and the worse - tapes and cassettes are notoriously bad because they are very vulnerable to physical damage and suffers from sticky shed syndrome where the tape, glue and oxide start to degrade within a few years. Magnetic discs and tapes are hit worse by obsolescence - I've got music stored on mini disc, DAT and Zip-discs - all of it currently unreadable - I've music source files stored on 5¼", 3½" and 3" floppy discs ... none of those drive formats ship on the latest PCs and MACs (and that's without even mentioning 8" floppies, Bernoulli drives and all the faith IT experts put into backing up onto tape streamers a few years back) - I've already mentioned the planned obsolescence of PATA drives, then there is SCSI - try finding a SCSI IDE card for a PC now (or even USB to SCSI) - so what of SATA in 5 years time, or eSATA. Apple dropped FireWire a few years back, and now the iPad has lost USB - the shape of Apple's to come I think with everything going wireless. PCMCIA is history and the IDE bus is being phased out - it is all well and good having the media and the media transports, but if your computer cannot interface to them then they are as good as lost. Aside from all the 8-track and BetaMax jokes, how many of us have boxes full of VHS tapes and nothing to play them on but a 15 year old VCR? How reliable is your current CD/DVD player? Will that still work in 15 years?
 
The only way to protect your data is to keep it moving, continually copying it from old media to new media - that is why I said data storage is dynamic - you have to keep refreshing it.
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:


Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

 
If an album gets forgotten it will disappear 10 times quicker in electronic form than ever it did in hard-copy. When a file can be deleted irrevocably at the click of mouse, or by a malicious virus, or simply by a hardware failure, or by an OS crash that's one thing, but when finding or recovering that data relies on something as tenuous as the Internet then it becomes even more ephemeral since the data is only as permanent as the server it is stored on and the links to it.

 


... then you are very correct and this is a very important issue. I've witnessed the death of much online information due to dead links, unpaid hosting, lack of interest of the initial source.
Not just that - remember AOL home pages? Switched off on a corporate whim, wiping out thousands of non-profit making amateur homepages over-night - not just personal websites, but hundreds of small businesses, authors, artists and musicians who were using the "free" resource (that they paid for as part of their monthy fee) to publicise themselves but not earn a penny for Time-Warner-AOL. Anyone still got a GeoCities site? Or a Yahoo site? A Batcave site? You cannot trust third-party hosts to protect or guarantee your precious data - Flicker? PhotoBucket? deviantART? Has anyone got a written guarantee from them that their data will be accessible tomorrow, next week, next year? What of MySpace, LastFM and Facebook? How long will they last before they are superseded by the next big fad? The internet is an alien landscape for us, we like stability, for things to stay where we put them, but the internet isn't like that, it's just not built that way.
 
 
...Right, this all sounds a long way from Self-released albums and the woes of small independent artists trying to promote themselves in a sea of similar sounding and similar looking releases, but the complacency is the same - the naïve assumption that the new way is the better way and the future will last forever is building the same house of cards as the old way, but on far shakier ground.
 
 


Edited by Dean - February 12 2010 at 11:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 11:23
PS: there is a perverse irony in the fact that since starting this Blog 13 days ago the free webhost I use to "promote" my own amateur self-releases [oxyhost.com] has become increasingly unreliable, to the point where it is currently unusable Ouch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 11:26
^ Yahoo also wiped out Yahoo Blogs, but at least they sent a notice to all users asking them to back up before it happens. Still they suck for doing this.

I somehow missed the Live Prog blog, I'll check it out Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 14:33
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 18:54
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:


1. Hasn't it always been this way (and worse)? Was it easier for Bach 300 years ago to make his works stand the test of time?
Well, since we know his works some 300 years later I would answer yes to that. The recording medium he used was not as volatile - the written manuscripts have survived and the Well-Tempered Clavier is still in print (ISBN-13: 978-1854726544). Also, even though his music (and Baroque in general) went out of favour soon after his death, but less than 50 years later the composers of the Classical period (Mozart, Beethoven, Mendelssohn etc) were all "fans" because his manuscripts were still accessible to them.
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:

2. So what if music disappears. If no one is interested, is that such a bad thing? Isn't this cleansing mechanism, in fact, an answer to your first post?
This cleansing method would be arbitrary and non-selective and not quite what I had in mind. Having no one is interested in the music does not mean it is poor music, we could lose the world's greatest album of all time by that method simply because the artist was not very good at promoting himself and still praise the most generic piece of rubbish ever produced as being magnificent just because we believed the word-of-mouth hype, much of which was fabricated by payola, fake street teams, spamming and clever marketting.
Originally posted by stefolof stefolof wrote:


Sometime ago, I saw an interesting talk by Jimmy Wales who's the founder of Wikipedia. WP is run by a number of enthusiast. He often gets asked how they maintain the integrity of the site when practically anyone can edit it. The answer is that there's enough users who are serious and active in keeping it clean. They believe in it. The analogy to what we're discussing here is that, I think if music is good enough, it will stand the test of time because it will be kept alive by people. The media it is stored on is less important.
Wikipedia is unique in that poor articles, plagiarisms and acts of vandalism disappear very quickly because of the way in which the hierarchy of editors work within the system. The method forces a professional approach in the writers and an acceptable quality standard in both how they write and factual accuracy of what they write. Entries get constantly amended, updated and re-written - each wikipedia entry is a work in progress.
 
... in self-released music you don't get that - the music is presented as a finished work, and is accepted or discarded "as is" - there is no peer review or team of editors correcting and amending it. If some of the album is good and some is bad then that is how it stays.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 18:54
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The problem I see with this cloud analogy is that it is dynamic - it has to keep moving to stay alive - as data slows and loses momentum it will become exponentially harder to get it moving again - until it reaches the point where it stops moving and simply vanishes. This is more than just the long-term reliability of data storage and many-of-one redundancy (RAID) - this is the media providers actively deleting slow moving data (for example Rapidshare is time limited, SendFile is number-limited, Torrents are seed limited) - they will be wanting to maximise their bandwidth usage to guarantee the greatest return, they will be actively pushing and promoting fast-moving items - they will be dangling the carrot of free-stuff just like Supermarets have loss-leaders to attract the customers, but ultimately they are a for-profit business providing a paid-to-view service. How you pay is up to you.
 
 
This is why Internet phenomena are short lived, like supernova they burn bright and quickly die.


Why aren't television broadcasts slowing and losing momentum? or telephone conversations? It's all moving over the internet now, even cable television such as FIOS is really just like a web browser behind the scenes - and what differences there are that enables such content to stream without buffering, could be used to deliver music as well, which is far less bandwidth-intensive than video...

I also don't believe there is any differentiation between internet phenomena and anything else - newspapers are certainly fizzling out, books, magazines - the internet is rapidly becoming the only means by which people consume media...

I'm just trying to understand your points here - the examples you gave are all relatively small websites that try to monetize their services by nagging people with ads, delayed timers and slow bandwidth - but anyone can get cheap storage and bandwidth from any number of inexpensive webhosts...Ultimately cloud computing will derive profits form advertising, just as television always has, but only more effectively due to its ability to target demographics better...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 12 2010 at 20:01
Originally posted by jplanet jplanet wrote:


Why aren't television broadcasts slowing and losing momentum? or telephone conversations? It's all moving over the internet now, even cable television such as FIOS is really just like a web browser behind the scenes - and what differences there are that enables such content to stream without buffering, could be used to deliver music as well, which is far less bandwidth-intensive than video...
 
I also don't believe there is any differentiation between internet phenomena and anything else - newspapers are certainly fizzling out, books, magazines - the internet is rapidly becoming the only means by which people consume media...

I'm just trying to understand your points here - the examples you gave are all relatively small websites that try to monetize their services by nagging people with ads, delayed timers and slow bandwidth - but anyone can get cheap storage and bandwidth from any number of inexpensive webhosts...Ultimately cloud computing will derive profits form advertising, just as television always has, but only more effectively due to its ability to target demographics better...
Those artists who can afford to buy their own webhosts are not really an issue (as far as this thread topic goes), though those webhosts are only inexpensive while the bandwidth used is low, they will still be outnumbered by all the smaller self-release artists who use the one-click hosts. Small independant single product websites are a "find and retreive" operation - users don't want that - they want a one-stop shop - that is why oligarchies rule the internet.
 
In the past 20 years we have seen the number of TV channels increase but the actual original content decrease. Bandwidth is increasing but pot of cash to fund it and the revenue to sustain it is not increasing by the same ratio. In the world of TV shows get cancelled because they don't achieve the right Nielsen ratings which means they are not pulling in enough viewers to please the advertisers. The same thing will happen to the Internet, just by a different mechanism and route. There is no reason to advertise something if no one is buying. 
 
 


Edited by Dean - February 12 2010 at 20:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2010 at 05:21
One other thing to remember is that governments seem to be tempted by the idea of restricting internet access with those "packages". Even the EU tried to implement this policy in 2009 if I'm not wrong. It was something like: 20 euros for the first package (access to email + messenger), 30 euros for the second package (email + IM + Amazon +google), etc. etc.

If these policies are implemented, 90% of the internet as we know it will disappear, including the independent online music "industry".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2010 at 07:10
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

In the past 20 years we have seen the number of TV channels increase but the actual original content decrease. Bandwidth is increasing but pot of cash to fund it and the revenue to sustain it is not increasing by the same ratio. In the world of TV shows get cancelled because they don't achieve the right Nielsen ratings which means they are not pulling in enough viewers to please the advertisers. The same thing will happen to the Internet, just by a different mechanism and route. There is no reason to advertise something if no one is buying. 
 



But those channels run such wonderful informercials when you're up late at night and can't sleep. Tongue (Thank God for Cartoon Network's Adult Swim.)

With regards to advertising, it seems more about trying to influence people's buying than to reach those who already are.  Case in point, the Snuggie,  Consumer Reports says it's a piece of crap and why can't you just put your robe on backwards for crying out loud?

Back to the topic of self releasing, that sounds a little bit too much like a euphemism for masturbating.  And maybe that gets back to original point, it may feel good, but ultimately you'll usually just be enjoying yourself alone. 

To harmonium's point above, I couldn't agree with you more.  The internet took off like it did precisely because it didn't have those kind of monetary constrictions on what you could access.


Edited by Slartibartfast - February 13 2010 at 07:16
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2010 at 14:20
Originally posted by Slartibartfast Slartibartfast wrote:

To harmonium's point above, I couldn't agree with you more.  The internet took off like it did precisely because it didn't have those kind of monetary constrictions on what you could access.
I first went online in early 1994 using CompuServe, which was pay by the hour at the time (and quite expensive as I recall), everything was free but due to miserable dial-up speeds and bandwidths what you got wasn't very much. When you browsed (using Mosaic) you had graphics turned off as default just so a page would load before it was time to turn off the PC and go to bed. Music, such as there was, was exchanged as text - either as Midi or Tracker files. (hmm, must try and find some tracker program one day that stuff was so cool).
 
The Internet at that time was essentially three layered - for academics, IT professionals and hobbyists - the academics invented it and essentially paid for it, the IT professionals made it and supported it and, much to the annoyance of them both, the hobbyists just played with it, using it to socialise and post pictures of their pet cat. BBS, IRC and Usenet dominated, the WWW was thin and useless, lacking the depth, breadth and scope of what is on offer today - commercial sites were nonexistent - the best you could hope for would be a postal address for you to send a cheque too. However, the hobbyists showed that there was a domestic use for the internet and that there was a growing population of wired people who wanted to use the internet for pure simple pleasure.
 
At that time we thought (as many still do today) that the internet was egalitarian, free and immutable, immune from external pressure; that it was too big and too wide for one group of people to control, that governments were powerless to interfere with it and that it was impenetrable to corporate machinations. We were wrong. The dot-com bubble boomed and went bust and the wannabe entrepreneurs with half a harebrained idea who thought they'd get rich quick are now stacking supermarket shelves or flipping burgers appeared to prove us right, however the few that survived were the ones fittest to survive - we have seen the rise of a far more savvy commercial internet and creation of the Global Shopping Mall. The fingers that got burned in the dot-com burst are now wearing Nomex gloves. The commercial internet has not only redrawn the Internet in their image, they have redrawn the bricks and mortar shops in the physical shopping malls - where we had two or three similar shops and outlets, there are now only one of each kind. The dot-com companies that initially only wanted my credit card number are now beginning to issue their own credit cards.
 
Last week I bought an album from a self-released band geographically located 5,000 miles from where I live on a completely different continent on a completely separate tectonic plate - !click! - no need to enter my postal address or credit card number, I didn't get my card out of my wallet or enter my oh-so-secret PIN - one click and £12 leaves my account and $18 enters the band's. All well and good if both parties want to use PayPal, but what if you don't? Last year my bank gave out debit card-readers to people using online banking and Visa issued me with a wireless credit card - the technology is already in existence to turn every PC into an Epos terminal - the day when the Internet has a direct interface with your credit card is already here.
 
Everything is in place to make the internet pay per view - the supply is there and the demand is there, they don't need an excuse, they are just waiting for the right time - Super Bowl XLV - enter your PIN now; want to stream the latest Roadrunner release - enter your PIN now; want to see Avatar 2 - enter your PIN now.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 13 2010 at 16:45
^ I remember when I was kid growing up in tropical Florida, you could roam through woods, swamps and fields for miles in any direction and hunt for snakes or whatever, (brushes back one tear), but all that's gone now.

Good point Dean, I'll try to enjoy it while it lasts. Ebay sure was fun when it first opened, scored some amazing stuff for cheap, I wouldn't touch it now except as a reference to look up prices on completed items.

P.S. on a related subject: Keep paper money alive and use it as much as possible.
Demand non-electronic voting that produces a traceable paper trail.
Sorry to change the subject and sound paranoid, but it is somewhat related to things mentioned earlier.

Edited by Easy Money - February 13 2010 at 16:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2010 at 06:41
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 04:57
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2010 at 10:13
^ But if we rid music of business, then what will happen to those of us who make our living through music. Is it wrong to want to make your living through music?
Should the local symphony orchestra play for free and not pay their musicians?
Should Jeff Beck fix cars for a living?
Should the store where I pick up sheet music for students repent and give away all of their music and confess that they used to expect something in return for their work?

In the case of the orchestra, once the musicians who were expecting to be paid quit, we can replace them with musicians who will play for free, I'm sure there will be a huge improvement in performance skills.


Edited by Easy Money - February 15 2010 at 10:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2010 at 13:10
There will always be money to be made on music, but not by merely creating recordings. To be a viable, money-generating artist, live performance and merchandising have to be a part of the plan.

As Brian Eno once said, selling music now is like trying to sell oil for oil lamps after the invention of electricity...

There will always be a ton of money to be made playing live, as well as licensing music to games, television, film, etc...Because those are the routes through which a few can be separated from the many - that is the case with every type of business. If every man woman and child were able to legally manufacture and sell automobiles, then automobiles would lose their value.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2010 at 13:46
Well, there are people making millions out of selling bottled water, which is a proff that just about anything is possible. When people are willing to pay for a commodity they can get for free in their own homes, it should be possible to sell people something they can't get for free as well.

It's a matter of finding the right channel though. The right way to market it, the right place to market it, the right people to market it too.

Of course - in the music business there is that additional factor called competition to add to the formula.

A concept that might be worthwhile pursuing by someone, is some kind of subscription system. Let's say that you paid 15 bucks plus a fixed postage each month to get a CD in the post. You get an email monthly with links to - say - 5 mp3's by 5 different artists. Monthly selected choices. You can listen to 30 seconds samples or complete songs, and make a purchasing decision after listening. Direct link in the email. Also with links to MySpace pages, for those who'd like to check out further before deciding.

If none of them are to your liking, you can log in to a website and make a selection from a catalogue there instead.

Those that don't make any choice will be sent one specific highlighted CD.

Is that something that people might find interesting I wonder?

It's an age old concept, but by using emails and direct links - as well as a webpage and being approachable on various social networks like Facebook, Twitter etc. for eace of accesibility - could this ancient way of doing business be viable?

Of course - in this day and age there wouldn't be a need for a central unit to have all CDs and stuff there and then. Individual artists could sign up to become a part of this system, paying a fixed amount (1 dollar perhaps) on each sale they get through this system. And send out any ordered CDs themselves or through whatever cooperating partners they have set up to handle the biz part of their affairs.

Oh - signing up for a digital only system should be an option as well in such a system. The CD is fast approaching the end of it's life cycle after all.

Just an idea - perhaps a tad out of place inside this discussion - but thought to get it out now before the teflon in my brain covered it again ;-)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2010 at 14:02
Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Well, there are people making millions out of selling bottled water, which is a proff that just about anything is possible. When people are willing to pay for a commodity they can get for free in their own homes, it should be possible to sell people something they can't get for free as well.


Why do you assume that? Do you think everybody has great tasting water at home?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2010 at 14:07
Originally posted by harmonium.ro harmonium.ro wrote:

Originally posted by Windhawk Windhawk wrote:

Well, there are people making millions out of selling bottled water, which is a proff that just about anything is possible. When people are willing to pay for a commodity they can get for free in their own homes, it should be possible to sell people something they can't get for free as well.


Why do you assume that? Do you think everybody has great tasting water at home?


Our water tastes like stale flowers.

Seriously, the water in central Florida has such a distinct aroma it even permeates homes.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2010 at 14:07
Well - looking at the country I live in - where most (more than 90%, probably more than 95%) of the people have great quality water in their homes, bottled water is a multi-million industry. Same goes for other countries nearby.

I do know that there are many countries/cities/places where the case is different of course - but I also do know that the water industry is a multi-million business also in places where there isn't a direct or even plausible need.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 15 2010 at 14:33
To add to the sidetrack - from Wikipedia on bottled water: "The global bottled water market valuation grew by 7% in 2006 to reach a value of $60,938.1 million. The volume of bottled water grew by 8.1% in 2006 to 115,393.5 million liters. In 2011, the market is forecast to have a value of $86,421.2 million, an increase of 41.8% since 2006. In 2011, the market is forecast to have a volume of 174,286.6 million liters, an increase of 51% since 2006"

Two articles - here and here - might be worth reading.
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