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Easy Money 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
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Points: 10617
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 Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:10 |
 stefolof wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
I don't see it-- the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre: pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not. I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal. Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate? No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better.People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it. |
Is it bizarre really? You're assuming that people choose freely between options. I don't believe that's the case. Let's say you've been growing up to listening to MOR all your life. What are the chances you plunge into progressive rock all of a sudden? Further, imagine traditional Indian, African or Asian traditional music. They're considered popular in their respective locations but how much do they have in common with each other and with Western traditional music? You would expect if there was common notion of "popular" there would be similarities. |
I think you're talking about a situation where there is little or no choice or diversity from birth, whereas David is obviously choosing between $100 avant-garde and grilled cheese pop. Your described situation has no choice.
It would be an interesting experiment to raise some kids on nothing but Xennakis and Stockhausen, they would be super-humans who would enslave us all, ha.
Edited by Easy Money - February 03 2010 at 02:14
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stefolof
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Kl
Status: Offline
Points: 59
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Posted: February 03 2010 at 02:01 |
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:01
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65250
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Posted: February 03 2010 at 01:46 |
stefolof wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
I've got to disagree.
People are morons. They flock to lots of things that are terrible. The music industry kind of depends on this.
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I'd say people (the masses) eat what they're being fed and flock around what they have been conditioned to flock around. Imagine if all radio and TV stations would play only avant garde music. You can be sure people would start buying avant garde records. |
I don't see it-- the assumption that people don't really like what in fact they do is a bit bizarre: pop music is what it is because it most suits popular tastes, like it or not. I occasionally enjoy fine dining but I much prefer a real, good old fashioned meal. Does that mean I have an unsophisticated palate? No, I've been cooking my whole life, had unbelievably great meals that cost $100 per person and grilled cheese sandwiches that were far better. People consume what they enjoy most until they no longer enjoy it.
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stefolof
Forum Groupie
Joined: November 30 2009
Location: Kl
Status: Offline
Points: 59
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Posted: February 03 2010 at 01:25 |
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Edited by stefolof - August 26 2015 at 07:02
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 22:37 |
Easy Money wrote:
OK, let me re-phrase that. If your demo is no good it will not get you any gigs or much attention no matter how much you try to shove it in people's faces. |
I think that's pretty much scripture.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 22:12 |
Textbook wrote:
Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it. |
Well, from my own experience good demos always got me better gigs than bad demos. Otherwise, why even bother making a good demo since making a bad one is so much easier.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65250
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 22:07 |
Epignosis wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
From what I have seen through a couple decades of experience in the world of making music is that it boils down to this:
If your music is really good then people will flock to it, promotion will be easy. In the late 80s I worked with a band that was so powerful and creative that the good vibes from this band just oozed from the demo. The calls from clubs insisting that this band play on high profile nights were endless, Even up to over a year after the band broke up.
If your music isn't all that good you will find yourself having to promote yourself endlessly, jumping up and down and saying 'listen to me, listen to me', while those around you would probably rather talk about something else. It's not a lifestyle of much dignity. |
I've got to disagree.
People are morons. They flock to lots of things that are terrible. The music industry kind of depends on this.
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well yes but the reality is that they flock to things they like.. people may have bad taste, some may even be dumb, but they aren't sheep (evidence to the contrary)
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 21:57 |
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Rubbish. I know from my own experience in rap that persistence counts more than talent. Trash rappers who won't take no for an answer end up signed a lot more than interesting ones who are laid-back about it.
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 21:55 |
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OK, let me re-phrase that. If your demo is no good it will not get you any gigs or much attention no matter how much you try to shove it in people's faces.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 21:26 |
Easy Money wrote:
From what I have seen through a couple decades of experience in the world of making music is that it boils down to this:
If your music is really good then people will flock to it, promotion will be easy. In the late 80s I worked with a band that was so powerful and creative that the good vibes from this band just oozed from the demo. The calls from clubs insisting that this band play on high profile nights were endless, Even up to over a year after the band broke up.
If your music isn't all that good you will find yourself having to promote yourself endlessly, jumping up and down and saying 'listen to me, listen to me', while those around you would probably rather talk about something else. It's not a lifestyle of much dignity. |
I've got to disagree.
People are morons. They flock to lots of things that are terrible. The music industry kind of depends on this.
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 20:18 |
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Dean: So you're asking people to make better albums?
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Easy Money
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 10617
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 20:03 |
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From what I have seen through a couple decades of experience in the world of making music is that it boils down to this:
If your music is really good then people will flock to it, promotion will be easy. In the late 80s I worked with a band that was so powerful and creative that the good vibes from this band just oozed from the demo. The calls from clubs insisting that this band play on high profile nights were endless, Even up to over a year after the band broke up.
If your music isn't all that good you will find yourself having to promote yourself endlessly, jumping up and down and saying 'listen to me, listen to me', while those around you would probably rather talk about something else. It's not a lifestyle of much dignity.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 19:59 |
Textbook wrote:
I guess the point here is that there may be people who would make incredible albums if they weren't self-released, those who do need the paint job a good label can provide, and that in this environment they may never receive it and be all they can be. But people are always going to slip through the cracks- bringing back the labels will mean we'll miss out on people who would make great albums if only they didn't have to deal with label politics. |
You've missed the whole point of this thread by quite a wide margin. It's not about bring back the labels, although they've not actually gone anywhere just yet, (and since this is Prog Rock "the man" forgot about us years ago anyway), nor is it about allowing semi-talented people the chance to make incredible albums - this is Prog Rock - you cannot bluff it. This is about the desire to maintain a level of quality in what we listen to regardless of where it comes from, who made it or how it was released. I don't believe I am expecting too much, or asking for the moon on a stick, or demanding that the self-released artist do anything extra special or anything that is beyond their reach. I know self-released artists haven't a bottomless pit of money to draw on, but as Nakatira said on the previous page, producing an album doesn't cost the earth anymore - all it takes is something the self-released artist has plenty of ... time. Time to put just a little more care, thought and work into what they are presenting to the world as the sum total of their talents. Because whether they like it or not, that is all there is to judge them on.
Edited by Dean - February 02 2010 at 20:14
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What?
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 19:26 |
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I guess the point here is that there may be people who would make incredible albums if they weren't self-released, those who do need the paint job a good label can provide, and that in this environment they may never receive it and be all they can be. But people are always going to slip through the cracks- bringing back the labels will mean we'll miss out on people who would make great albums if only they didn't have to deal with label politics.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 19:17 |
Textbook wrote:
Sorry but this is a bit nonsensical in my opinion. I would've thought that the very definition of a talented musician is one who is able to produce a high quality product without calling in the label support team. It's true that much self-published stuff is rubbish but when wasn't that true of major label releases too? Yes, a support team can polish a turd but they can also wreck or even shelve a great album. I refer you to one of the all-time great hip-hop albums, The Best Part by J Live which is a stone cold classic of mature, musical, intelligent rap which literally sat in the vault for years because Raw Shack Records felt it didn't have any singles. I would rather have an environment where people can freely publish rubbish rather than one where releases need approval from "them"- word of mouth on the internet is a fairly accurate and reliable barometer of making sure that the diamonds in the rough will be identified and found by those who care. |
No need to apologise.
However, the point you are making is exactly the point I am making - a talented musician can produce a high quality product without calling in the label support team. He does this by doing all those tiny little mundane but very critical jobs that those people at the label would have done for him if he had been signed. Unfortunately many self-released artists are not and many of them may be super-duper musicians/songwriters/singers but it does not follow that they are naturally good at all the other skills needed.
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What?
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 18:43 |
stonebeard wrote:
Dean wrote:
Þ |
WAT
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I really hate it when people quote me out of context :-Þ
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What?
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MovingPictures07
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Beasty Heart
Status: Offline
Points: 32181
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 17:02 |
Textbook wrote:
Sorry but this is a bit nonsensical in my opinion. I would've thought that the very definition of a talented musician is one who is able to produce a high quality product without calling in the label support team. It's true that much self-published stuff is rubbish but when wasn't that true of major label releases too? Yes, a support team can polish a turd but they can also wreck or even shelve a great album. I refer you to one of the all-time great hip-hop albums, The Best Part by J Live which is a stone cold classic of mature, musical, intelligent rap which literally sat in the vault for years because Raw Shack Records felt it didn't have any singles. I would rather have an environment where people can freely publish rubbish rather than one where releases need approval from "them"- word of mouth on the internet is a fairly accurate and reliable barometer of making sure that the diamonds in the rough will be identified and found by those who care. |
I really wanted to avoid getting involved in this thread, but I'll just say I agree with this and the viewpoint shared by Robert and Micah.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 16:29 |
Dean wrote:
Þ |
WAT
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 16:15 |
Textbook wrote:
I personally believe there is absolutely no essential causal relationship between success and talent |
That has nothing to do with our little debate.
Textbook wrote:
so being well
paid doesn't mean you're the best at all. |
I agree, and I didn't say that.
Textbook wrote:
And yes, as far as my own experience of the world is concerned, art
is bad because I don't like it. |
I sympathize with this statement 
Edited by harmonium.ro - February 02 2010 at 16:32
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: February 02 2010 at 16:04 |
I personally believe there is absolutely no essential causal relationship between success and talent so being well paid doesn't mean you're the best at all.
And yes, as far as my own experience of the world is concerned, art is bad because I don't like it. I'm speaking for myself, not the universe.
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