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Marty McFly 
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 3968
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 Topic: Help With English In Reviews
Posted: March 21 2010 at 08:32 |
 Bellringer wrote:
I would love to do a little tweaking of the bios if allowed, so I'm wondering how I could do that without copying them out by hand one by one and re-submitting them. They don't necessarily need re-writing, just cleaning up. |
I hope my PM helped you. If you want to help, just send me PM with your version of biography and I'll replace it.
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my
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Bellringer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 19 2004
Location: Hull, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 99
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Posted: March 21 2010 at 03:32 |
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I would love to do a little tweaking of the bios if allowed, so I'm wondering how I could do that without copying them out by hand one by one and re-submitting them. They don't necessarily need re-writing, just cleaning up.
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Psalm 69:6
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Windhawk
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 28 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 11401
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Posted: March 20 2010 at 15:04 |
Bellringer wrote:
I do a lot of personal research on this site about 70s prog and this topic is one which has really begun to bother me, too. My beef, though, is not with the REVIEWS, but with the BIOS.
I can understand that reviews are quite personal and that the site probably receives far too many a day to make copyediting them feasible, anyway, but the bio of a band/artist is supposed to be just that: a simple history combined with a discography and a description of the band's/artist's sound.
I could let reviews stand as they are, but surely the bios should be held to a higher standard? |
Feel free to PM any of the team collaborators with updated bios you may get the urge to write. There's a lot of issues in the backbone of this site that needs looking at - but with limited human resources and all of them unpaid, there are limits to what we can achieve in here, and keeping the momentum going forward with additions and handling suggestions is more than enough for most of the people involved here. As far as language is concerned, which is what this thread was all about originally, I tend to see that many non-English regular contributors improve their language and linguistic skills as they keep writing (and reading). We have a couple of Japanese members which might have a few opinions in that department ;-) English writing help would be a nice feature, and a task for someone truly dedicated to just that. And I'm willing to bet good money that if that feature ever becomes available, the number of reviews submitted by non-English reviewers will increase substantially, and whoever's appointed as the language guide will get them first :-)
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Websites I work with:
http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com
My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: March 20 2010 at 14:51 |
Bellringer wrote:
I do a lot of personal research on this site about 70s prog and this topic is one which has really begun to bother me, too. My beef, though, is not with the REVIEWS, but with the BIOS.
I can understand that reviews are quite personal and that the site probably receives far too many a day to make copyediting them feasible, anyway, but the bio of a band/artist is supposed to be just that: a simple history combined with a discography and a description of the band's/artist's sound.
I could let reviews stand as they are, but surely the bios should be held to a higher standard? |
This is an issue that has been discussed a lot around the Collab Zone. Unfortunately, in the early day of the site the standards were far more lax than they are now, and people wrote just about what they wanted in bios - or just copied them from other sites. The problem is, we are all unpaid volunteers, and the amount of work to do is staggering. We would be grateful for any help we can get in order to whip those bios into acceptable shape.
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Bellringer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 19 2004
Location: Hull, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 99
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Posted: March 20 2010 at 14:45 |
I do a lot of personal research on this site about 70s prog and this topic is one which has really begun to bother me, too. My beef, though, is not with the REVIEWS, but with the BIOS.
I can understand that reviews are quite personal and that the site probably receives far too many a day to make copyediting them feasible, anyway, but the bio of a band/artist is supposed to be just that: a simple history combined with a discography and a description of the band's/artist's sound.
I could let reviews stand as they are, but surely the bios should be held to a higher standard?
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Psalm 69:6
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Marty McFly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 3968
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 10:20 |
And you did the right thing. Some of us aren't aware of these little things that enhance conversation.
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 10:03 |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 06:39 |
Atavachron wrote:
...BTW, proud to be Scottish
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 06:00 |
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You know, just yesterday I was talking with my student (a very nice American guy who is really serious abour learning Italian), and telling him about the way standards of language competence for native Italians have been declining. I've seen some egregious grammar mistakes on newspaper, and not just on their websites - and what you can read on any discussion forum is enough to turn your hair grey. In many ways, mistakes made by native speakers are much worse than those made by non-native speakers of any given language.
I also agree that, in many cases, the problem with reviews is just bad writing. Not to toot my own horn, but, if you read any of my reviews, you will notice that I am a stickler for structure (having an introduction and a conclusion, and developing my argument in a way that makes it easy to follow), and I always use separate paragraphs. Many people don't do that, and the result is their reviews are not as easy to read as they could be with a bit more organization.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 05:43 |
Epignosis wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
I actually like the idea as a voluntary one. It would help the writer hone their his English skills.
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Ooooppppsss.  I've always had this bad habit of using their as a gender neutral substitute for his or her. 
Textbook wrote:
I maintain that the best fix is to allow non-English
reviews. |
You could do that but it would look to me like: Badfjkk;l afgjppo kafgj jakglglo. Jjjgjiaoio. Jgiirll gjj ajkfglkj jajfklg gjjkalkf. My point being that writing in English does make the review readable by the widest audience attending this site. And I do agree with the point made earlier. Even if the English isn't perfect or even mangled, hat's off to those who don't have it as his or her native language for doing a pretty good job of getting his or her point across. I'm not one of those English only jerks in this country, I think due to demographic changes we are inevitably headed towards a bilingual English/Espanol country, which I don't see as necessarily a bad thing.
Edited by Slartibartfast - January 27 2010 at 05:57
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Online
Points: 65682
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 02:02 |
seventhsojourn wrote:
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
I have been living in this country -Scotland and Northern Ireland- now for 15 years. I am not entirely sure about this was/were, has/have and is/are grammar. I let my editors sort that one out. But I am trying my best to improve the grammar side of this language I could not care less about 20 years ago ... I am not entirely being encouraged to sort out my grammar too when even the locals have not sorted out their grammar. Not even BBC has got their grammar right. I think the English language is going to pieces and is being replaced by some variations of grunts from the belly. Back to the trees and the monkey world. |
Hi toroddfuglesteg, I always enjoy your reviews... great stuff!
As far as this post goes, I broadly agree that the use of Standard English is sadly on the decline. However this is not confined to Scotland; as toroddfuglesteg states, you only have to tune in to any television station in the UK to hear that region's peculiar dialect. In my opinion, the deterioration in the English language is just another sign of the ''dumbing-down'' of society. I'm actually quite embarassed at times when listening to some of my fellow Scots. Of course toroddfuglesteg is making a generalisation, as not all us Scots are knuckle-draggers!  |
funny-- I watch BBC World News often to get an intelligent, rational, adult news report that is much better than most news in the U.S... I guess it depends on your perspective. ...BTW, proud to be Scottish
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Marty McFly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 3968
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 01:52 |
This scheme has some flaws, as much as I hate to say, because how for example would I be able to read Spanish, French, Russian (which I speak / understand crudely), Portuguese, Italian, Eastern / Southern Europe languages (which I would understand also, very barely), or Polish (which is fun to read few words, but entire reviews would be quite hard ... and Czech Republic is neighbor of Poland).
Only review I would be able to read properly, except English would be Slovak one and honestly, how many Slovaks do contribute these days :- / My idea is either leave it be as it is, or fix the worst reviews. Allowing non-English ones would make confusion if you ask me. Now, I can read all reviews published here. What's the best way to announce French prog gem of 70's that nobody knows ? Write review in English, instead of French, that not everyone can talk.
After all, reviews here aren't this bad, are they ? If you want to take my reviews for analysis, you are free to, make suggestion, point errors. I'll fix them, or try to write certain things differently, or to expand review with fresh mind at all. Even at point of 420 pieces, it's hard, very hard to accomplish.
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my
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Textbook
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 08 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 3281
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Posted: January 27 2010 at 01:12 |
I maintain that the best fix is to allow non-English reviews. (Which I think among other things would greatly increase the amount of traffic/contributions ProgArchives gets. See also the establishment of a non-English folder in the forum.) But in the meantime if we're going to insist on English, assistance should be offered to those who want it. This would not be retro-active- already published reviews would be left alone unless their author wants to contact the language team and revise them. It would be an option in the review submitting screen- "Do you want to submit your review to the language team before publication? The edited review will be PM'd to you for approval before publishing."
And it's a fair point to keep in mind that incomprehensible reviews are sometimes not the result of language deficiencies but bad writing. The emphasis would be on technical correction but if there are egregious cases of purple prose and the like, language team could suggest revisions. And remember, it would be suggested, not enforced.
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: January 26 2010 at 12:21 |
The worst offenders in BBC is not the Scots, Seventhsojourn. The worst offenders are those in the home counties and London. Those in the BBC offices in London, in other words. Check out BBC News from London and stop counting at twenty. It won't take you long........ But I understand what this thread is about. I have never had problems understanding the zest of any reviews here. Sometimes I think people here get lost in a forest of their own thoughts and drown themselves in a room full of braincell-spaghetti. But that is another debate.
Edited by toroddfuglesteg - January 26 2010 at 12:22
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006
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Posted: January 26 2010 at 10:51 |
toroddfuglesteg wrote:
I have been living in this country -Scotland and Northern Ireland- now for 15 years. I am not entirely sure about this was/were, has/have and is/are grammar. I let my editors sort that one out. But I am trying my best to improve the grammar side of this language I could not care less about 20 years ago.
.......... I am not entirely being encouraged to sort out my grammar too when even the locals have not sorted out their grammar. Not even BBC has got their grammar right. I think the English language is going to pieces and is being replaced by some variations of grunts from the belly. Back to the trees and the monkey world.
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Hi toroddfuglesteg, I always enjoy your reviews... great stuff!
As far as this post goes, I broadly agree that the use of Standard English is sadly on the decline. However this is not confined to Scotland; as toroddfuglesteg states, you only have to tune in to any television station in the UK to hear that region's peculiar dialect. In my opinion, the deterioration in the English language is just another sign of the ''dumbing-down'' of society. I'm actually quite embarassed at times when listening to some of my fellow Scots. Of course toroddfuglesteg is making a generalisation, as not all us Scots are knuckle-draggers!
So what is my point in relation to the original thread? Well, ''grunts from the belly'' may not sound beautiful, but if others understand those grunts then they amount to effective communication. By the same token, even if a review is written in broken English (if I may use that expression) I find it entirely acceptable as long as I get the gist of it.
As I stated in my initial post, I do think that voluntary editing is a fine idea and it could be of real worth to some members. However, I just have this nagging doubt that it would then become compulsory and be seen as a barrier by others.
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toroddfuglesteg
Forum Senior Member
Retired
Joined: March 04 2008
Location: Retirement Home
Status: Offline
Points: 3658
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Posted: January 26 2010 at 03:21 |
I have been living in this country -Scotland and Northern Ireland- now for 15 years. I am not entirely sure about this was/were, has/have and is/are grammar. I let my editors sort that one out. But I am trying my best to improve the grammar side of this language I could not care less about 20 years ago. .......... I am not entirely being encouraged to sort out my grammar too when even the locals have not sorted out their grammar. Not even BBC has got their grammar right. I think the English language is going to pieces and is being replaced by some variations of grunts from the belly. Back to the trees and the monkey world.
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seventhsojourn
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 11 2009
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 4006
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 18:51 |
I really don't know about this one. On the surface it seems like a good idea and I certainly wouldn't discount it out of hand. I might even be willing to offer my services if PA would have me! However, by Textbook's own admission there are already many existing reviews written in ''mangled English'' (to use his/her words). Would the proposed language team have to sift through every review in order to edit them?
Although I've only been a member since December 2009, I've been visiting PA on an almost daily basis for three years. Most of the time I can grasp the meaning of reviews, even when written by someone with limited English language skills. I think it's important that reviews reflect an individual's opinion of an album; the danger is that the text might be diluted, if not changed wholesale, by an editor. What would be the next step? What other standards would reviews have to conform to? We already have people selectively correcting spelling and grammatical errors in the forum. Ok this is light-hearted fun, but I think even the suggestion of having reviews vetoed might discourage people from doing reviews.
Just my tuppence worth.
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LiquidEternity
Prog Reviewer
Joined: December 07 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 900
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 17:52 |
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Helping with this is one of the services I'd most like to offer the site. However, my schedule is just too busy. I don't mean I get to walk in and clean up reviews, but more just fix the English on a few reviews sent to me beforehand. I dunno. It would be confusing. But helpful. And I wish I had the time and patience to actually commit to something like that, but I'm in my last year at university, and I have a LOT of things to get done. So casual browsing/time wasting is alright, but full-on internet projects probably need to wait.
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Marty McFly
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: March 23 2009
Location: Czech Republic
Status: Offline
Points: 3968
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 17:27 |
[QUOTE=Atavachron]hang in there Martin, I think you do a great job and admire your determination -- Thank you dear sir David for your sincere words, which pleased me more than I though before (before what, before when ? oh my dear, these ideas are incomplete :-) )
- either British or American is fine (though you may prefer one; just keep it consistent, like in a review if you decide to use British spelling keep it British for the whole review) That's hard, because I have some words memorized as English (taught in school) and others like American (from movies / TV). But you're right, spell checker can help. One exception. When talking about ANY COLOUR YOU LIKE, always use British :-) it's something like homage to it. Provided that you use any other word colour except name of the song.
Oops, underlined, seems like American English reigns here. - terms like 'wanna' or 'gotta' are incorrect but also can add a casual quality that can give a review a natural feeling
I see. Will keep this on my mind. I do use various techniques in my reviews, including direct speech to reader, colloquialisms and short stories. Soon, poems will come. - yes the dictionary is not always helpful, especially computer or online ones; find a good Websters or Oxford-- even better, get a good Thesaurus or Synonym Finder, they can be a good source of inspiration (as long as you don't overdo it ;)
I would more need some music lectures, terminology from prog world. I can recognize Mellotron, but that's all. Everything else is for me synth, or keyboards. Am not sure what's the difference, but again- I can feel it.
- I can see how 'a', 'an', and 'the' could cause confusion They can. I naturally say: Go to THE shop, but I don't know why. I'm just used to do it. There are rules, definite / indefinite articles. Again - caused by fact that my language does not have them. We can use them, but it depends on situation and mostly, they're not needed (though they're possible) - a Yoda-like order of words is sometimes not so terrible: "Your father's rock music this is not."
Serious: Very rarely ..... Humorous: you know ... random Yoda talk ;-) (good ol' young Marty's getting lazy)
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There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu Even my
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: January 25 2010 at 06:49 |
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Well, I believe it could be a good idea, but I have to admit in all honesty that I'm not so sure. Personally speaking, I tend to be quite heavy-handed when editing a text (I am a certified teacher of English, though now I teach Italian, which is my native language), and this doesn't always fly very well. I am also the kind of person who would never write anything that is going to be published (on the web or elsewhere) without being 100% sure of her skills, but that's just me and my perfectionism.
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Help With English In Reviews
