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bsms810 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Vinyl
    Posted: January 11 2010 at 18:12
Not sure this is the correct place for this but.....
 
im big into my prog these days, especially the 70s stuff. I am also a mere 26 years old. I have therefore never owned an old record player, only cds (gasp!). I was wanting peoples opinions on the difference in listening to these old records as they were intended compared to on CD, For example ive always wanted to hear Thick as a Brick on vinyl..... Is it worth my time getting a record player? or just stick to getting CDs? Thanks for any replies
'when was the last time you had a girlfriend?'
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 11 2010 at 18:32
Hi,
 
I say get the CD ... I'm on the way to about 1200 LP's from 2500 originally ... and I am not a collector ... I only have what I love ... end of story.
 
To my way of seeing it, a lot of these gimmicks, are just commercial efforts and if you are a music lover, the gimmicks are not needed and you can get away from them.
 
That's the way I think though ... it's almost like saying that the music is not worth collecting if it had a Hignosis cover, and I can tell you that was not true at all ... from the strangest to the weirdest ... it was all tops ... and some stuff was magnificent and then some ... but to me this was what "art" was about and "expression" ... and these days, in a board like this, there are too many commerical pundits that love to go around saying something is not this or that ... because it is not listed in the top ten, or because it does not have the mandatory 74/69 time required on the verse after the chorus that makes up someone's definiton ... or the one I just saw on Bass Player magazine, just to give you an idea how stupid it can get .... "the minor chords that define jazz ... " like minor chords have not been a part of any other music ... EVER ... I doubt that person has ever heard anything else in his life! See?
 
I say you go for the music ... and unlike the LP's ... CD's are getting a lot more material out there than LP's ever did ... though in the beginning rock and long cuts and experimental musics still had a place for it to come out ... today they do, by themselves and there is no promotion to help you find it ... and in many ways you do not want someone to tell you any of this ... music is best when you can come to it on your own ... an dlearn it by yourself.
 
It's about you ... so if you want to "collect" ... fine ... hope you make enough money! ... but most of those people out there are not about the music and they never were. And there are a couple of things that someone has offered me big money for ... but man ... I guess that I am a stupid sentimental fool ... the music in those is so special to me ... I can't even say yes to getting rid of the LP.


Edited by moshkito - January 11 2010 at 18:37
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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bsms810 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 06:30
Thank you for your thoughts. I guess there is an elemant of 'collector' in wanting to own the vinyls, but from what you've said it makes sense that, if you love the music, to acquire that music in whatever format available, and if you happen to have a cd player, get em on CD if this is easiest... it's the music rather than the gimmick of the format.
 
Haha it seems to me that you have an elemant of both sides... as you cant bare to part with your more prized ones.... I can certainly see where you are coming from.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 07:09
My advice:

1. Get yourself an affordable record player (preferable with USB interface and software to rip and transfer albums) and buy LPs in thrift stores
2. Buy the remastered editions of some of the albums as MP3

Don't listen to people who claim that MP3 sounds inferior. With the appropriate bitrate MP3 sounds just as good as the original, and all the current stores use these bitrates. Let me give you an example:

http://www.amazon.com/Thick-As-A-Brick/dp/B000T1GKH2/ref=sr_shvl_album_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1263301603&sr=301-1

Currently priced at $6.99, and you get the 1997 remaster plus all the bonus tracks. This leaves you (compared to the CD) enough money to also buy a used copy of the vinyl LP, and you get both worlds.

BTW: My personal opinion is that new remasters (90s and newer) almost always sound better than the vinyls. So if you're mostly interested in the music and not in the collector's value, I'd recommend to buy MP3s only.

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chopper View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 07:36
I reckon some prog LPs would be worth buying on vinyl and TAAB is one that springs to mind for the cover. I don't own it on CD but I suspect the CD cover may not contain all the information on the vinyl edition. This is certainly the case for "Olias of Sunhillow" where the vinyl has the booklet with the story to the album and the CD only has the outside pages.
 
And of course the artwork is much bigger on the vinyl editions. I would buy the vinyl version of Yessongs for the Roger Dean cover alone (if I didn't already have it).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 08:03
Hey I'm just a teen but I still by vinyls. I'm not claming that they have a better sound, but certainly a different one, that goes better with some music. +Sometimes rare records get realeased on vilyl only.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 08:32
A Vinyl was nice to take in your hands, looking at the cover's details while you were listening to the music. The shape of the tracks was visible. You was able to understand if it was a slow and calm or a fast and heavy track just looking at them on the disc. Some booklets, in particular Rick Wakeman's early albums were very impressive. The CD is a different kind of object. It's as "warm" as an mp3. The cover is just a picture, and it's not possible to put inside it a newspaper like on Thick as a brick. Also, when CDs appeared in the market,  the physical support was cheaper, but CDs were more expensive... I hate CDs since then. The sound has too much "dynamics" respect to the vinyl. It's good for electronic music, but bad for acoustic instruments that are quite "innatural". However, CD is quite dead as well as vinyl. Flash RAMs are the present and YouTube stuff is going to be the future. Very bad.    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 08:55
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

I reckon some prog LPs would be worth buying on vinyl and TAAB is one that springs to mind for the cover. I don't own it on CD but I suspect the CD cover may not contain all the information on the vinyl edition. This is certainly the case for "Olias of Sunhillow" where the vinyl has the booklet with the story to the album and the CD only has the outside pages.
 
And of course the artwork is much bigger on the vinyl editions. I would buy the vinyl version of Yessongs for the Roger Dean cover alone (if I didn't already have it).


That's a good point - and it's also what I've been doing for a while now. I buy less vinyl albums and focus on those with interesting artwork.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 09:48
Yes i have heard that the TAAB newspaper is something to behold, altho the CD version i think contains all the info, it isn't quite the same. And yes the Yes covers are beautiful, prob worth seeing those in large. Thank you for your posts I shall consider my options based on the useful tips
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 09:57
I've recently started vinyl collecting due to receiving a large amount of used vinyls as a gift. And one thing I've noticed is that almost all of them have problems ... pops, cracks, distortion, just from being stored for years. When shopping for records, you have to know how to spot this without playing the record to ensure that you're going to get an album that isn't full of artifacts. So for me, getting a record, while really cool, always has a level of risk to it. This is more so when I'm buying music online, because a lot of older records can only be grabbed used, and you have to rely on the seller to represent their music properly. So, for convenience and stability's sake, I find that I still prefer the CD.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 10:40
I'm 18 years old, however there was only vinyl (and a small number of tapes) in my house until I was 13 and I still use vinyl regularly. The difference is that CD's are good for convenience and creating compilations of the songs you are most likely to listen to through computers, however, vinyl gives a ritualistic approach to playing a record where one sets the record up to play very carefully and listening to the music intently as the nature of playing vinyl makes it less likely for one to skip through tracks hurriedly.
I find that vinyl, although it crackles with dust and scratches with age, has a fuller sound and often songs sound slightly faster on vinyl than they do on CD simply as a result of the technolgies being somewhat different from each other. Also, most of the vinyls will not be remasters, so you may find that in some cases the songs have extra parts within them that have been removed or changed at a later date. For example I owned a copy of Ozzy Osbourne's Blizzard Of Ozz on CD and on vinyl, the sound of the guitar and effects put on it were pretty different on the vinyl and also, the rythym section is entirely different on the vinyl because (I discovered at a later date) that because of some kind of legal dispute between the band members, the drums and bass work was rerecorded with another bassist and drummer, thus only the unremastered recordings have the original work, which as a matter of fact, I liked it just as much as the remaster. maybe in some ways the original is even better because you have something a bit different from everone else! Another thing which vinyl has in its favour, is the detail in which one can view the album art. It is far clearer and the greater scale of the vinyl allows for its cover art to make a much more accentuated statement to those who view it than its digital counterpart does. To give another example, it is a very different experience for one who examines the great gatefold cover of Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon on vinyl with every detail of the songs and the album before you with the rainbow heart monitor motif running though the middle of the sleeve in comparison to one who gets the CD copy who reads the liner notes as they would a little book. The latter can still have you engrossed, but it simply does not have the same impact on the viewer. Vinyl also can have some unexpected tidbits of album art waiting for you on the inner sleeve, the thin paper sleeve inside the album cover. I have noticed this alternative placement of art and/ or liner notes to be the case with some of my Def Leppard, Van Halen and Pearl Jam vinyls, just to name a few bands who have done this. And let's not forget picture discs and coloured vinyl specials, they are wonderful additions to the cabinet of any record collector. I say that it is always worth having a vinyl player in the home of any dedicated music fan and I hope this helps you make your decision.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 10:44
^ Ever heard of paragraphs? Pinch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 10:53
Originally posted by bsms810 bsms810 wrote:

Not sure this is the correct place for this but.....
 
im big into my prog these days, especially the 70s stuff. I am also a mere 26 years old. I have therefore never owned an old record player, only cds (gasp!). I was wanting peoples opinions on the difference in listening to these old records as they were intended compared to on CD, For example ive always wanted to hear Thick as a Brick on vinyl..... Is it worth my time getting a record player? or just stick to getting CDs? Thanks for any replies
Analogue recordings sound overproduced on anything but vinyl. Get rid of all your CDs, mp3s and go out and buy a record player. Vinyl is actually coming back. Actually it never died. I have all my vinyl from the 70s & 80s. Didn't even buy a CD player until 1997.Big smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 10:57

I think you will find, Vompatti, that both paragaphing and the ability to summarise are not talents that I have.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 11:53
By the way, for those new to vinyl collecting you should rotate them.  I had a bunch that were soaked in a recent house flood.  They had been on the shelf and left alone for about 15 years.  They will flatten a little on the bottom rim.  One of my bosses decided to salvage them and noticed that. 

On a side note, glass is also sort of a very slow moving liquid.  Panes in a window will get thicker on the bottom and thinner at the top as time goes by.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 13:32

Grab a turntable you will need it as some albums are still are not available on cd.

If you are buying old records check the surface for scratches ( Light ones will affect the sound and not jump) Deep ones the record is rooted. Make sure that they are level and have not warped and one other tip if the record is old there will most likely be grime in the grooves so a gentle wash through warm soapy water ( not hot you will damage it) with a sponge and get that grime out. Rinse them off and on the dishrack too dry. Sound quality will improve.
 
As for the sound differences I really do not care as cds are just as good these days and are a hell of a lot easier to maintain.
 
One other mention with new vinyl is often the same mix that is put on the cd is the same that goes on the vinyl recorded or scrubbed up digitally. Steve Barrow who ran the Blood and Fire reggae label was amazed at the complaints he had when releases were not vinyl and said it was the same master used for both.
A lot of that stuff was taken off singles that had to be cleaned up,
 
 With the original old vinyl releases done in Analogue there is a difference.
 
You will need a record cleaning cloth and don't forget a soft tootbrush as you will get fluff building up around the needle (stylus) and that for me is the easiest way to get it off with out handling the needle. Always get diamond needles not sapphire as they only last about a 1/3 of a diamond.
 
And don't forget to keep them out of the sun and never leave them in cars they warp. The old trick of placing the record between two sheets of glass to straighten it if has warped does not workLOL
 
Have funSmile  I still like singles
Matt

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 14:22
I love everything about vinyl. Taking them out of the sleeve with loving care. Looking at them when you first get them trying to figure out what they will sound like from the thickness of the grooves.Placing them on the turntable. Cueing the stylus. Watching it go around. Holding the cover while you listen to them. Reading the booklet. Best one I have is Jethro tull's hard cover 1972 Living In The Past album which opens into a 20 page book! Searching for that elusive album by that obscure group in record shops, flea markets, junk sales ( although this is a thing of the past with the age of the internet  Angry)  There is a mystique about vinyl. Vinyl albums are more personal I find.

One method I use to rmove gunk from the grooves is toothpaste although I'm sure that a lot of guys would advise against it but it has worked for me. A long haired freak who owned a record store showed me this one  years ago.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 14:28
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I love everything about vinyl. Taking them out of the sleeve with loving care. Looking at them when you first get them trying to figure out what they will sound like from the thickness of the grooves.Placing them on the turntable. Cueing the stylus. Watching it go around. Holding the cover while you listen to them. Reading the booklet. Best one I have is Jethro tull's hard cover 1972 Living In The Past album which opens into a 20 page book! Searching for that elusive album by that obscure group in record shops, flea markets, junk sales ( although this is a thing of the past with the age of the internet  Angry)  There is a mystique about vinyl. Vinyl albums are more personal I find.

One method I use to rmove gunk from the grooves is toothpaste although I'm sure that a lot of guys would advise against it but it has worked for me. A long haired freak who owned a record store showed me this one  years ago.

Well, no doubt, vinyl is groovy. Tongue

I have a copy of that Living In The Past, too.  The vinyl was screwed up but the rest is primo.  Survived the flood. Big smile

They make really expensive vinyl cleaning machines by they way.  Anyone have any experience with them and opinions/recommendations?


Edited by Slartibartfast - January 12 2010 at 14:30
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 14:49
Just Crest toothpaste. Warm water. Damp cloth. I'm not a fanatic.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 12 2010 at 14:52
Originally posted by Vibrationbaby Vibrationbaby wrote:

I love everything about vinyl. Taking them out of the sleeve with loving care. Looking at them when you first get them trying to figure out what they will sound like from the thickness of the grooves.Placing them on the turntable. Cueing the stylus. Watching it go around. Holding the cover while you listen to them. Reading the booklet. Best one I have is Jethro tull's hard cover 1972 Living In The Past album which opens into a 20 page book! Searching for that elusive album by that obscure group in record shops, flea markets, junk sales ( although this is a thing of the past with the age of the internet  Angry)  There is a mystique about vinyl. Vinyl albums are more personal I find.

One method I use to rmove gunk from the grooves is toothpaste although I'm sure that a lot of guys would advise against it but it has worked for me. A long haired freak who owned a record store showed me this one  years ago.
in a way you almost make me wish the internet was never invented.... When I first discovered TAAB, Selling England or Close to the Edge for example, It was like a new world of greatness, and i was instantly able to start my searches on the internet for other albums of the same era...It was so easy...but somehow too easy if you know what i mean, if the internet wasnt there i think it would have been genuinely exciting to shop in old record stores and eventually come across things that id been hunting for, it certainly would have staggered my prizes!
 
Well this has been very insightful for me, lots of great input, and not only have i had advice about whether to acquire an old player, but also advice on how to select and maintain any records i may purchase! so a hearty thanks to everyone
 
Mike
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'I dont look at it as when, I look at it as who...and why' - David Brent
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