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Dean 
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Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
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Points: 37575
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 Posted: January 06 2010 at 06:00 |
 Trademark wrote:
"So none of these things can be proved by science because they are not of science, they can only be believed by faith, so there cannot be a rational explanation and cannot be given the benefit of the doubt."
And yet they happen. |
Do they? Do they really? Do they really really happen?
I have no doubt that people believe these paranormal/miracles happen, but I seriously do not believe in a non-rational explanation for them myself because I do not feel the need to reject a rational explanation and can accept that random coincidences do happen.
Of course, religious people have a "problem" with random coincidence, for some of them evolution is a series of random coincidences that simply could not have happened because they choose to ignore the non-random filtering of those random chance events. These filters are required for the system to work and keeps the system within the physics/biology/chemistry of the Universe. If science required non-random filtering that resulted in evolution (or the non-random filter) defying the laws of nature then the theory would rightly be rejected as false.
With paranormal events, the coincidental random events are also subject to non-random filtering which results in a percieved pattern that requires a non-rational explanation. If that is the case then it is the non-random filtering that is in error and the percieved pattern is false, if the resultant explanation defies the physics/biology/chemistry of the Universe then the explanation is simply wrong, worse still if the non-random filtering is also irrational.
Last year I saw a green VW beetle and that day we had 4" of snow...I saw a green VW beetle yesterday and now my garden is covered in 12" of snow... if you don't believe in coincidence then should I torch that beetle to prevent further snow? No, of course not, there must have been several occasions where I saw that car and it didn't snow and there will have been times when it's snowed without seeing the green VW, but I "forgot" those non-coincidental times because they did not register as being important at the time.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 04:52 |
Henry Plainview wrote:
I can respect pure atheism, but apathy is terrible. What happens after death is more important than life because death is forever, you can't just blow it off... |
Why not? If everything ends with death, if there is no after death, then it is not forever, death would lasts less than a yotta-second and then you are dead.
The only reason people have a belief in an after-life is that other life continues after death, so memory of that person continues after death in the minds of other people, concepts of the after-life are for the comfort of the living.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 03:12 |
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I can respect pure atheism, but apathy is terrible. What happens after death is more important than life because death is forever, you can't just blow it off...
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 03:01 |
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It is but at the same time, I don't care.
I'll just get on with life, thank you very much.
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 02:50 |
James wrote:
I'm an Atheist but don't use that term myself as I feel using a term for a non-belief is akin to a Religion/Philosophy.
I do not need to prove God does not exist. I know it does not. I also do not mean the normal view of God. I mean all forms.
I have lived 29 years perfectly fine without any need for religion and I am happy being this way.
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And yet your position is more philosophical than rational, since you seem to have no logical basis for your non-belief. ;-)
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if you own a sodastream i hate you
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 02:16 |
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I'm an Atheist but don't use that term myself as I feel using a term for a non-belief is akin to a Religion/Philosophy.
I do not need to prove God does not exist. I know it does not. I also do not mean the normal view of God. I mean all forms.
I have lived 29 years perfectly fine without any need for religion and I am happy being this way.
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Dalezilla
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: July 28 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 5113
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Posted: January 06 2010 at 00:21 |
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Why would god not just tell us that he's there?
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Trademark
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2006
Location: oHIo
Status: Offline
Points: 1009
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 20:41 |
" So none of these things can be proved by science because they are not of science, they can only be believed by faith, so there cannot be a rational explanation and cannot be given the benefit of the doubt."
And yet they happen.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 19:04 |
Yep, 700 MTS were more oir less normal ina middle class family in the 70's and 80's.
Today all the houses are being destroyed and built 100 or 120 mts apartments.
Ivám
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 18:59 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Dean wrote:
As a cynic and sceptic, I cannot help but notice that in this case the message arrived in the house (by phone) long before the aunt's revelation - while there was no direct verbal communication between Iván's mother and aunt there was undoubtedly non-verbal (body language, demeanour, candour etc), and without knowing the actual layout there is always the possibility of the either the phone conversation or any later conversation between Iván's parents being heard through water-pipes, heating ducts, wall cavities, wiring conduits, etc. the acoustics of a house change drastically late at night when all normal household activity has stopped.
If it had occurred the other way around (premonition followed by external confirmation) I would be less sceptical, but still would expect a non-paranormal explanation. |
Not quite right Dean.
The call came at 1 am when everybody was sleeping, that house was so big (made of concrete as most Lima houses), the water pipes are inside the ground, there were no atics or basements, so it was impossible for somebody to listen almost 70 mts away.
The next morning was school day and we woke at 6:30 am (as usual) with our parents having breakfast, my aunt woke 10 minutes later (she was music teacher on a school) and the fitrst words my mother said when my aunt crossed the kitchen's door were "I have some bad news"
Her friend was healthy 60 something woman, so nobody was expecting anything, and the direct answer from my aunt (who was a very Catholic woman and would never lie): "Yes Julia died, last night, she came to say goodbye", without even tears in that moment.
Nobody gave her a clue, could had more easily be my grandmother (who was like 8 years older), any of her brothers, but she pointed Julia directly.
I tried to find explanations for years, but never was able.
Iván |
Sorry, I was not trying to debunk your story, just supplying an alternative view since I do not "believe" in paranormall activity at all - if none of the rational explanations fit the scenario then I'm happy with the "lucky guess" solution.
(70mts... wow! that's a big house)
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 18:53 |
jampa17 wrote:
Again... how you can "proved" that there are not link between two events, I'm not saying that it HAS to be a link, but how can you prove that there's no lnk in bitween... as I tell you, I have read and heard about this theory of the brain energy so when someone passed the way, the energy of the brain can be felted or manifested in other place and especially whit somebody who was somewhere linked with person... it's a rational explanation as Mike call it, I'm not saying it's a miracle, but I insist that we do not know too much about ourselves so it's a valid to give the benefit of doubt right....??? |
I don't have to prove there is not a link between them - if the link is obvious then that is proof enough, if the link is tenuous or not obvious then I don't have to prove it is not there - you have to prove that it is. That is not a subtle play with words, it is the only valid logic that a rational person will accept.
The energy levels in the brain are infinitesimally small (in the order of 1µV) - to make any "energy connection" to another human they would have to be in direct physical contact, not separated by the kinds of distances you are implying. What you are suggesting defies the laws of physics and implies (among other things) faster than light communication, direct point to point broadcasting (ie the signal has intelligence and can seek its target), and a level of information density (ie bandwidth) that is simply staggering.
So none of these things can be proved by science because they are not of science, they can only be believed by faith, so there cannot be a rational explanation and cannot be given the benefit of the doubt.
Edited by Dean - January 05 2010 at 19:17
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 14:38 |
Dean wrote:
jampa17 wrote:
Well... I wasn't saying it's a miracle, but, it happens that most of these dreams you did not mention if it's a regular dream... but, whatever, I already said that I don't believe in coincidences, for me that do not happened, because I believe in that perfect plan so... but I know your explanation I have hear it many times, but it still is just a theory or a probability, and happen not be the most accepted, IMO, of course... well, I'll be back... |
And that is the difference between science and belief 
I do believe in coincidence and it is very cool when coincidence happens, but it's not remarkable, paranormal or predestined from my perspective. They are only co-incidental because we make the connection between the two events, even though in reality they are not connected at all.
(Sorry, I was being liberal with the use of the word "miracle" before.) |
Again... how you can "proved" that there are not link between two events, I'm not saying that it HAS to be a link, but how can you prove that there's no lnk in bitween... as I tell you, I have read and heard about this theory of the brain energy so when someone passed the way, the energy of the brain can be felted or manifested in other place and especially whit somebody who was somewhere linked with person... it's a rational explanation as Mike call it, I'm not saying it's a miracle, but I insist that we do not know too much about ourselves so it's a valid to give the benefit of doubt right....???
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 14:00 |
Dean wrote:
As a cynic and sceptic, I cannot help but notice that in this case the message arrived in the house (by phone) long before the aunt's revelation - while there was no direct verbal communication between Iván's mother and aunt there was undoubtedly non-verbal (body language, demeanour, candour etc), and without knowing the actual layout there is always the possibility of the either the phone conversation or any later conversation between Iván's parents being heard through water-pipes, heating ducts, wall cavities, wiring conduits, etc. the acoustics of a house change drastically late at night when all normal household activity has stopped.
If it had occurred the other way around (premonition followed by external confirmation) I would be less sceptical, but still would expect a non-paranormal explanation. |
Not quite right Dean.
The call came at 1 am when everybody was sleeping, that house was so big (made of concrete as most Lima houses), the water pipes are inside the ground, there were no atics or basements, so it was impossible for somebody to listen almost 70 mts away.
The next morning was school day and we woke at 6:30 am (as usual) with our parents having breakfast, my aunt woke 10 minutes later (she was music teacher on a school) and the fitrst words my mother said when my aunt crossed the kitchen's door were "I have some bad news"
Her friend was healthy 60 something woman, so nobody was expecting anything, and the direct answer from my aunt (who was a very Catholic woman and would never lie): "Yes Julia died, last night, she came to say goodbye", without even tears in that moment.
Nobody gave her a clue, could had more easily be my grandmother (who was like 8 years older), any of her brothers, but she pointed Julia directly.
I tried to find explanations for years, but never was able.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 05 2010 at 14:01
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 13:17 |
jampa17 wrote:
Well... I wasn't saying it's a miracle, but, it happens that most of these dreams you did not mention if it's a regular dream... but, whatever, I already said that I don't believe in coincidences, for me that do not happened, because I believe in that perfect plan so... but I know your explanation I have hear it many times, but it still is just a theory or a probability, and happen not be the most accepted, IMO, of course... well, I'll be back... |
And that is the difference between science and belief
I do believe in coincidence and it is very cool when coincidence happens, but it's not remarkable, paranormal or predestined from my perspective. They are only co-incidental because we make the connection between the two events, even though in reality they are not connected at all.
(Sorry, I was being liberal with the use of the word "miracle" before.)
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 13:00 |
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Well... I wasn't saying it's a miracle, but, it happens that most of these dreams you did not mention if it's a regular dream... but, whatever, I already said that I don't believe in coincidences, for me that do not happened, because I believe in that perfect plan so... but I know your explanation I have hear it many times, but it still is just a theory or a probability, and happen not be the most accepted, IMO, of course... well, I'll be back...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 12:55 |
jampa17 wrote:
Dean wrote:
There are so many possible explanations it is always easier to take the one that best fits your particular beliefs, or more accurately, the one that gives us most comfort. With death, one of the biggest regrets is never having the chance to say good bye - regardless of our personal beliefs and thoughts about what happens after death, we all grieve when someone close to us dies - the chance to say good bye alleviates some of that grief for us. 20 years on, not being able to say goodbye to my dad before he died still hurts - it is a very powerful emotion.
As a cynic and sceptic, I cannot help but notice that in this case the message arrived in the house (by phone) long before the aunt's revelation - while there was no direct verbal communication between Iván's mother and aunt there was undoubtedly non-verbal (body language, demeanour, candour etc), and without knowing the actual layout there is always the possibility of the either the phone conversation or any later conversation between Iván's parents being heard through water-pipes, heating ducts, wall cavities, wiring conduits, etc. the acoustics of a house change drastically late at night when all normal household activity has stopped.
If it had occurred the other way around (premonition followed by external confirmation) I would be less sceptical, but still would expect a non-paranormal explanation. |
Well, one friend that I'm chating right now through google has just tell me that his mother dreamed with a relative one day and she mention to her family the next morning that they should ask for that relative and maybe go and see her, and that die that relative died, of course, before they went to see her so... there's no practical or easy explanation don't you think...??? yes, I know you can pick the easier explanation acording to your belief, but there are case in which that is not that simple... |
... or not that complicated Juan.
Life is a series of coincidence and chance happenings, when they appear unremarkable or result in an unsurprising outcome we generally ignore them, it is the odd times when that the appear to be related or connected that we remember them.
We don't remember all the times that we thought of someone and did nothing, or thought about visiting them and they were okay because they were normal and rational. We would not say, "Hey a miracle happened - I dreamt about visiting my sister so I did and she was surprised to see me."
The human brain is programmed to detect patterns in random information, (remember my cloud example), we make connections between events, some of them are logical and we take them for granted, but when they are illogical or irrational we mark them as special. This is a necessary step in the cognitive (problem solving) process - illogical patterns have to be learnt so we can recognise them again as part of our survival technique - we don't have time to work out each illogical connection a fresh each time so we "programmed" to recognise and remember them.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 12:36 |
Dean wrote:
There are so many possible explanations it is always easier to take the one that best fits your particular beliefs, or more accurately, the one that gives us most comfort. With death, one of the biggest regrets is never having the chance to say good bye - regardless of our personal beliefs and thoughts about what happens after death, we all grieve when someone close to us dies - the chance to say good bye alleviates some of that grief for us. 20 years on, not being able to say goodbye to my dad before he died still hurts - it is a very powerful emotion.
As a cynic and sceptic, I cannot help but notice that in this case the message arrived in the house (by phone) long before the aunt's revelation - while there was no direct verbal communication between Iván's mother and aunt there was undoubtedly non-verbal (body language, demeanour, candour etc), and without knowing the actual layout there is always the possibility of the either the phone conversation or any later conversation between Iván's parents being heard through water-pipes, heating ducts, wall cavities, wiring conduits, etc. the acoustics of a house change drastically late at night when all normal household activity has stopped.
If it had occurred the other way around (premonition followed by external confirmation) I would be less sceptical, but still would expect a non-paranormal explanation. |
Well, one friend that I'm chating right now through google has just tell me that his mother dreamed with a relative one day and she mention to her family the next morning that they should ask for that relative and maybe go and see her, and that die that relative died, of course, before they went to see her so... there's no practical or easy explanation don't you think...??? yes, I know you can pick the easier explanation acording to your belief, but there are case in which that is not that simple...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32524
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 12:32 |
Mr ProgFreak wrote:
^ well, my hope is that some day the Einsteinian god will be the latest trend.
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Why?
He's no fun to go to Vegas with.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 12:31 |
There are so many possible explanations it is always easier to take the one that best fits your particular beliefs, or more accurately, the one that gives us most comfort. With death, one of the biggest regrets is never having the chance to say good bye - regardless of our personal beliefs and thoughts about what happens after death, we all grieve when someone close to us dies - the chance to say good bye alleviates some of that grief for us. 20 years on, not being able to say goodbye to my dad before he died still hurts - it is a very powerful emotion.
As a cynic and sceptic, I cannot help but notice that in this case the message arrived in the house (by phone) long before the aunt's revelation - while there was no direct verbal communication between Iván's mother and aunt there was undoubtedly non-verbal (body language, demeanour, candour etc), and without knowing the actual layout there is always the possibility of the either the phone conversation or any later conversation between Iván's parents being heard through water-pipes, heating ducts, wall cavities, wiring conduits, etc. the acoustics of a house change drastically late at night when all normal household activity has stopped.
If it had occurred the other way around (premonition followed by external confirmation) I would be less sceptical, but still would expect a non-paranormal explanation.
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What?
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: January 05 2010 at 12:31 |
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Look, if you are OK that the believing in God is not bad or negative to mankind per se, it's a progress, for me, religion is a method to reach a superior level in your state of mind, or soul or call it as you like... but I don't think it's negative and I'm glad that people could have faith in some invisible force and believe that we are not alone... for me that's enough and I don't care if catholics are a minority -certaintly not in my country- or if there becomes a new religion more plausible, what I believe is that our believing in God is what makes us good so... I don't like a future without God... for me that future, for too rational you want to show it, is sad and mankind will be a lot more sad and selfish, but we already discuss this in another thread so...
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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