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Topic ClosedThe Theist - Agnostic - Atheist Poll

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Poll Question: What are you?
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 09:57
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ wow, you're back at using bigger font size.

 
No Mike,the font of the article I copied and paste is big and I can't modify it or take the bold.
 
Please don't change the issue and reate a helthy peaceful halo for you and violent for us.
 
Iván


In that case I recommend copying it to a text editor and then paste it back ... works wonders for Epigosis' posts as well.Wink
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 09:59
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ directly after the bit you quoted it continues:

The Church's stance is that this gradual appearance has been guided in some way by God, but the Church has thus far declined to define in what way that may be. Commentators tend to interpret the Church's position in the way most favorable to their own arguments. The International Theological Commission statement includes these paragraphs on evolution, the providence of God, and "intelligent design":

"In freely willing to create and conserve the universe, God wills to activate and to sustain in act all those secondary causes whose activity contributes to the unfolding of the natural order which he intends to produce. Through the activity of natural causes, God causes to arise those conditions required for the emergence and support of living organisms, and, furthermore, for their reproduction and differentiation. Although there is scientific debate about the degree of purposiveness or design operative and empirically observable in these developments, they have de facto favored the emergence and flourishing of life. Catholic theologians can see in such reasoning support for the affirmation entailed by faith in divine creation and divine providence. In the providential design of creation, the triune God intended not only to make a place for human beings in the universe but also, and ultimately, to make room for them in his own trinitarian life. Furthermore, operating as real, though secondary causes, human beings contribute to the reshaping and transformation of the universe." (paragraph 68)


I'll leave it open for discussion. I would be convinced if the current pope came out and announced, on tape, that we are evolved apes and just a small branch on the ever growing tree of life.Big smile


But I thought we didn't evolve from apes, just that we and apes evolved from a common ancestor.  WinkTongue

Happy New Year, by the way.


And a happy new year to you as well.

Of course we are apes, and we evolved from lesser evolved apes. Whatever our offspring will evolve into will always be apes, since that's our clade. I guess the better and more precise way to put it is "we and all other modern apes evolved from an ancestral species of apes". Smile
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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 10:00
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


I'll leave it open for discussion. I would be convinced if the current pope came out and announced, on tape, that we are evolved apes and just a small branch on the ever growing tree of life.Big smile
 
You want him to deny the existence of God?
 
Isn't enough to acept the evolution fully?
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 04 2010 at 13:06
            
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 10:02
^ I wouldn't know the difference.Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 13:09
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I wouldn't know the difference.Embarrassed
 
It's obvious for all of us you never notice the difference unless Dawkins says  and signs it.
 
Ivám
            
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 13:20
^ What's with this Dawkins obsession of yours? I had been an Atheist long before I even heard of Dawkins (which was in late 2009). I also always thought that the concept of evolution rules out any possibility for the existence of the Judeo-Christian God. It should be completely obvious to anyone who fully understands the concept of evolution. It wrongs the Bible in so many ways that I simply can't see how any apologist might make this appear to be consistent and plausible.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 15:24
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Ivan:

Ivan, suppose someone is healed without a good scientific reason. How are we supposed to react to that? What if he didn't go to worship at an icon or anything? What if there's no connection to any religion, but he is healed without an attributable cause?

In the opposite situation, what if a person is healed in the same way, but had recently prayed or made a religious pilgrimage or something. What should we believe out of this scenario? Should we take it then that all the tenets of his religion are true? Or should we take it that God exists? Well then, what specifically could this God do, besides apparently healing someone?

I'm sure there are many instances of people from all different religions and maybe even no religion being healed without scientific explanation. I think this is almost meaningless, though, even supposing there was a Godly explanation for it. If someone was healed through religion, we have no way of knowing what to do or what to believe out of those circumstances.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 16:00
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

What do you mean by sentience? (I'm off to look it up but curious where consciousness / sentience is separated)
 
 
ed.
 
After looking up, the definition seems to be "capable of having subjective experience" or simplified to the "ability to feel." Consciousness being sentience with something more.
 
In that, it FEELS like virtually all mammals would assumed to be sentient. Probably all birds and likely down into fish.
 
Arthropods are probably where the argument would sit, I think. More to go read.
 
 
ed II.
 
I sure hope we're not the end point of evolution.
The name of our species is homo sapiens, not homo sentiens, indicating that "wisdom" is the definitive human quality rather than feeling... though species classification names are little proof of anything.
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


I think that another capability of humans that makes us special is foresight - the ability to make plans for the future. I think that this is especially important when we want to discuss ethics. For example, a pig might be able to suffer pain as much as we do, but killing it might be not as bad as killing a human being because pigs (supposedly, for all we know) don't make plans for the future. This ability might even be used to define a "person" ... an entity who cares about its future or can make plans for it.
Most animals plan for the future. Squirels bury nuts in preparation for winter, preditor animals plan differnt attack strategies on herds and lone prey, a stooping falcon will aim for where its prey will be at the moment of strike, not where it is when it begins the dive (a future location for a future event), migratory birds will feed before a migration, all animals mate and build nests, dens, dams, etc., in preparation for a future event... they may not know why they do these things, but they just might.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 16:10
Technology allows me not to have to plan for anything.  I'm a "seditent" being.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 16:23

Thought about thought is something that seems like it's probably unique to humans, and then not even all humans. And it is that reflective, self-modification of the system that then allows qualitatively different things to happen.

No?
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 16:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

The name of our species is homo sapiens, not homo sentiens, indicating that "wisdom" is the definitive human quality rather than feeling... though species classification names are little proof of anything.


I think the next 200 years or so will show how wise we are, as a species.

Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:


Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


I think that another capability of humans that makes us special is foresight - the ability to make plans for the future. I think that this is especially important when we want to discuss ethics. For example, a pig might be able to suffer pain as much as we do, but killing it might be not as bad as killing a human being because pigs (supposedly, for all we know) don't make plans for the future. This ability might even be used to define a "person" ... an entity who cares about its future or can make plans for it.
Most animals plan for the future. Squirels bury nuts in preparation for winter, preditor animals plan differnt attack strategies on herds and lone prey, a stooping falcon will aim for where its prey will be at the moment of strike, not where it is when it begins the dive (a future location for a future event), migratory birds will feed before a migration, all animals mate and build nests, dens, dams, etc., in preparation for a future event... they may not know why they do these things, but they just might.


Yes, but do they really plan ... do they go to sleep thinking "tomorrow I'll do this"? Who knows (yet).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 17:04
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


Yes, but do they really plan ... do they go to sleep thinking "tomorrow I'll do this"? Who knows (yet).
Referring back to my remark about my cat dreaming (his name is Spike... not relevant, but since he's part of this he might as well be credited), while we don't know what the full purpose of dreams (and REM sleep) are, some theories/studies suggest it is related to memory and creativity ... Since these two processes are important for our ability to plan ahead, it would suggest that it has the same purpose in other mammals.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 17:08
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

Thought about thought is something that seems like it's probably unique to humans, and then not even all humans. And it is that reflective, self-modification of the system that then allows qualitatively different things to happen.
No?
I'd go along with that. Though "too much spare time on their hands" is probably something that enables that process.
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 17:25
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

Ivan:

Ivan, suppose someone is healed without a good scientific reason. How are we supposed to react to that? What if he didn't go to worship at an icon or anything? What if there's no connection to any religion, but he is healed without an attributable cause?
 
The icons do nothing Stoney.
 
God may act with or without a person asaking him.

In the opposite situation, what if a person is healed in the same way, but had recently prayed or made a religious pilgrimage or something. What should we believe out of this scenario? Should we take it then that all the tenets of his religion are true? Or should we take it that God exists? Well then, what specifically could this God do, besides apparently healing someone?
 
There's a very complex procedure to verify this Stoney, I tell you with certitude i have studied Canonic Law, and it could take years, you neeed wittnes, declarations, medical certificates, opinions from 3 iddepemndant hospitals and of course rthey can receive negative witness also.

I'm sure there are many instances of people from all different religions and maybe even no religion being healed without scientific explanation. I think this is almost meaningless, though, even supposing there was a Godly explanation for it. If someone was healed through religion, we have no way of knowing what to do or what to believe out of those circumstances.
 
God may act through different religions or even without one, but if somebody wants to credit the miracle, more than casual proof is required.
 
Some process have taken 2 or 3 centuries,
 
Iván
 
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 18:02
You did not address any of my questions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 19:26
Originally posted by stonebeard stonebeard wrote:

You did not address any of my questions.
 
Maybe because I don't have the answers to all you ask.
 
I just believe in miracles, I seen one (when I was an agnostic), so I believe but still don't totally understand, call it ingenuity, being naive or whatever, I call it faith.
 
There are more things in heaven and earth, Stonebeard, Than are dreamt of in your science.
 
Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - January 04 2010 at 19:28
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 19:34
^ You've seen one? I'd be interested in hearing more about it, but please only post more information if you can tolerate some criticism. I'll promise though that I'll be more tolerant than Bill Maher in his movie, when the guy tells him about when he held his cup out of the window at a party and it began to rain.Wink




Edited by Mr ProgFreak - January 04 2010 at 19:35
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 19:36
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ You've seen one? I'd be interested in hearing more about it, but please only post more information if you can tolerate some criticism. I'll promise though that I'll be more tolerant than Bill Maher in his movie, when the guy tells him about when he held his cup out of the window at a party and it began to rain.Wink


 
It's personal Mike.
 
Iván
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 19:41
^ I respect that.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2010 at 20:48
Thanks Mike for understanding.
 
Iván
            
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