![]() |
|
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1234> |
Author | |
Ghostmojo ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() Joined: December 16 2009 Status: Offline Points: 26 |
![]() |
Thanks for all those interesting responses. What I think it underlines (as some of you detected) is the semantic arguments surrounding the definition. In other words - it is quite clear that the word PROG has assumed a quite different conotation to its original usage PROGRESSIVE. 'Prog' has its own magazine these days (courtesy of Classic Rock) and is a blanket term for music that possibly fuses rock with classical with elements or flavours of jazz and/or folk. It is not easy to sum it up - but we can say that bands like Yes, Marillion, ELP, Transatlantic, King Crimson etc. all comfortably sit within its perameters, whereas the likes of Deep Purple, Motorhead, U2, REM, The Rolling Stones and god knows how many other variations of rock formats don't. But there are of course always overlaps.
Perhaps Cream occupies one of those overlaps? As a genuinely progressive band of the late sixties alongside, Floyd, The Doors, Hendrix and Traffic they were certainly pioneers. Indeed the territory occupied by Cream - which they lay claim to - really has few if any other tenants. Cream were also (as Bruce and others tirelessy point out) two distinct bands - one for the recording studio - one for the concert hall. Not many bands had/have that schitzophrenia nor that ability.
When discussing Cream you really have to distinguish if you are analysing their studio or their live material.
Cream were not PROG. In many ways such a term would have been too restrictive. The Yes/Genesis approach to extended material relies upon strict discipline and memory. Cream played upon their wits every night. I have many bootlegs of their gigs and no song was ever played the same twice. For me that dexterity is quite remarkable. Few bands would dare take the risk. Few bands possessed the verve, skill or sense of adventure.
Cream remain utterly unique. Not even Zeppelin come close. The latter did long jams but they were essentially vehicles for Page to show off with Jones and Bonham knowing when to start and stop and when to join back in again. They were a consumate rhythm section - disciplined and reliable. But they did not take the risks Cream did. Bonham and Jones never attempted to match Page or duel with him in the way Clapton, Baker and Bruce did.
Cream deserve their own bracket. I don't know what you would call it. I would call it Progressive Jazz/Blues/Rock Hybrid. What they proved beyond doubt was that it wasn't just up to the 'featured' lead player to provide all the excitement. Indeed the credo of Weather Report - "we never solo, we always solo" could easily be applied to Cream.
In Eric Clapton they had one of the most dazzling guitarists of that or any age. In Ginger Baker they had a rhythmic genius way ahead of his time who was probably the first to bring world music into his drumming. Finally, in Jack Bruce they had their ultimate secret weapon. Not only did the man (alongside Entwistle) redefine what the bass guitar was all about, but he was a powerful vocalist; considerable musical talent who had mastered cello, harmonica, piano, acoustic guitar; and of course (with Pete Brown) a phenomenal songwriter. I would put Bruce/Brown alongside Lennon/McCartney; Jagger/Richards; John/Taupin; as one of the greatest songwriting duos ever.
There was never any band like Cream and probably never will be again.
|
|
![]() |
|
chopper ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20032 |
![]() |
Isn't SWLABR an acronym or something?
I do know where the name "Disraeli Gears" comes from though (a roadie's mispronounciation of the phrase "Derailleur Gears" (as on a bike).
|
|
![]() |
|
DSOMRADIO ![]() Forum Newbie ![]() ![]() Joined: December 29 2009 Status: Offline Points: 6 |
![]() |
I agree with the person who said you can categorise too much. Cream were never that far away from a hit single, so were they a pop band?
Yes they stretched out on a few tracks. So did The Yardbirds. I guess the problem this site has is that you have to draw the line somewhere, or it will lose credibility for many. |
|
Dark Side Of The Moon Classic and Prog Rock Radio 8pm Mondays UK time Skyline 102.5FM and www.skyline.fm |
|
![]() |
|
PROGMONSTER2008 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() Joined: December 09 2007 Status: Offline Points: 610 |
![]() |
Wheels of fire has to be one of the best albums on the 60s. It's a step ahead of nearly any other rock album of the time.
|
|
![]() |
|
halabalushindigus ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 05 2009 Location: San Diego Status: Offline Points: 1438 |
![]() |
I was twelve when I first saw the album cover to "Disreali Gears" and thought, this is what drugs must be like and that song "Swablar" How did they come up with a name like that? Progressive, absolutely. 3 reasons why, Eric Clapton Ginger Baker Jack Bruce oh and one more reason;
The picture has a mustache
![]() |
|
assume the power 1586/14.3 |
|
![]() |
|
TODDLER ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: August 28 2009 Location: Vineland, N.J. Status: Offline Points: 3126 |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |
|
himtroy ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 20 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1601 |
![]() |
Hi, This all seems really irrelevant to the point. And if anything I would say Ginger Baker ended up being the most progressive, he certainly played with more progressive bands than either of the other two later in his career. And people are heavily misconceived about Jack Bruce's contribution to Zappa's work. His only contribution was a certain noise on his cello in the song "Apostrophe". He played none of the bass on the song, it's faulty crediting, and if you disagree you can find an interview in which he discusses this. EDIT: I forgot i already commented on here, thats why it's two separate comments.
Edited by himtroy - December 25 2009 at 00:15 |
|
![]() |
|
himtroy ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 20 2009 Status: Offline Points: 1601 |
![]() |
I like Cream, but I'd say they're psychedelic rock not progressive rock. That being sad, I hate labeling music to an extent. Psychedelic rock has progressive tendencies, and prog has psychedelic tendencies. As far as I can see prog is for the most part the continuation of the same movement as psych rock.
|
|
![]() |
|
rushfan4 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 22 2007 Location: Michigan, U.S. Status: Offline Points: 66588 |
![]() |
Ginger Baker was also involved in a project called Masters of Reality. He played drums on their album Sunrise on the Sufferbus. It was somewhat progressive.
|
|
![]() |
|
![]() |
|
snobb ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 20 2009 Location: Vilnius,LT,EU Status: Offline Points: 3584 |
![]() |
OK, but main question wasn't about Ginger Baker or even Jack Bruce ( he is in yet), but about band. I think if we analize music works of band members ( solo works or side projects) it is some good additional information, but main reason is BAND's (Cream) music itself. So, I believe we should speak about is CREAM's music progressive enough or not.
|
|
![]() |
|
jammun ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
![]() |
^
GB Air Force was not all that great of a band. Good pedigree I guess, but not much happening musically. I suppose ya gotta do something following Cream.
|
|
Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
|
![]() |
|
Easy Money ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 11 2007 Location: Memphis Status: Offline Points: 10679 |
![]() |
As far as Ginger Baker's Air Force in JR, Martin and I both voted no. The reason being, at least on my part, was that Baker's band was being given consideration over more progressive African bands such as King Sunny Ade only because Baker was a 'rock star'. I have been meaning to talk to my team about adding King Sunny Ade, but there are a couple of bands ahead of him right now. Basically I didn't think Air Force was a particularly good band, their music can be tired and turgid. Baker's percussionist, Rebop, did some albums in a similar style to Air Force, but much better. I'm also familiar with the album Baker did with Laswell, it's OK, but it didn't strike me as a priority.
|
|
![]() |
|
snobb ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 20 2009 Location: Vilnius,LT,EU Status: Offline Points: 3584 |
![]() |
Best Ginger Baker Air Force's works are pure jazz-rock at the level of Brian Auger,etc. It's strange a bit, that Ginger Baker isn't on PA still. OK, Eric Clapton is really another story. But Cream never was a Clapton-only band!
|
|
![]() |
|
Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37228 |
![]() |
^ While Jack Bruce I would consider the most progressive of them. I wouldn't say that Ginger Baker is devoid of progressiveness (I wouldn't even say that of Clapton who was the one who really wanted to stick with blues-based music). Ginger Baker has worked with Hawkind and I can't see how someone could say there is no progressiveness about his projects (Ginger Baker's Air Force and Army and albums just under his own name). I find his jazz-fusion work interesting.
|
|
![]() |
|
earlyprog ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2157 |
![]() |
Cream were best - and most prog - in their psychedelic moments like We're Going Wrong and Dance the Night Away and I can hear the affinity with Jefferson Airplane so why not - the latter are here. Personally, I never saw JA as progressive...(although I LOVE the band)...so CREAM? no, thanks.
|
|
![]() |
|
moshkito ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18064 |
![]() |
Hi,
This is the problem with forcing bands to be a part of a group/grouping they are not ... bands like Cream were highly influential (I really think John Mayall was much more, btw) in expanding the musical tastes into areas that are not known as pop music anymore ... and the ability to expand music like that had a side effect in that it helped, later, the progressive bands do what they did and well ...
I can't possibly say that some of these long cuts and jams, were not influential to Yes, Genesis and many other bands ... it was the norm in those days to expand things ... and I think that many people felt they could do a lot better than just a guitar solo, ... in any piece of music ... but the combination of the three, away from the 3 minute songs, is actually very good ... but invariably really tough and not something they could sustain after a few years and more ego problems all around ... it was no longer about the music!
I would consider Jack Bruce the only progressive one in the bunch, and he easily verifies this by having the guts to play with Frank Zappa and doing a lot of different things, which you can not say for the other two in teh group ... one is a very good drummer that can not get past his ego and the other is a god ... that is not big enough to tell his fans ... I'm tired of that designtation ... I just play guitar ... plz!
The combination has a lot of details that you and I might consider prog ... but in essence, as a whole ... they were simply a rock band that made it big ... and the rest is unnecessary ... and even Eric will never buy it either!
|
|
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
|
![]() |
|
ko ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: November 09 2009 Status: Offline Points: 314 |
![]() |
Cream yes!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
|
![]() |
|
clarke2001 ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 14 2006 Location: Croatia Status: Offline Points: 4160 |
![]() |
![]() - Cream! Yes! Cream! Yes!! - Cream! No! Cream! No!! |
|
![]() |
|
jammun ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: July 14 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 3449 |
![]() |
One thing to note about Cream: in the studio, by the time of Wheels of Fire, they had the good sense to experiment instrumentally, outside of the standard guitar/bass/drum trio format. So you get a little cello on "As You Said", a little viola on "Deserted Cities of the Heart". It's hard for me to listen objectively to Cream, Hendrix, Butterfield and others who were working within a blues framework and at the same time pushing that framework out to its boundaries. I was a mere teen at the time and while The Archies were playing on the radio, I was having a decidedly different musical upbringing. So of course I consider much of this to be progressive.
Edited by jammun - December 22 2009 at 13:08 |
|
Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
|
![]() |
|
Logan ![]() Forum & Site Admin Group ![]() ![]() Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 37228 |
![]() |
I've always supported Cream for Proto-Prog at this site (I think it fits all of the criteria well) and I consider music of Cream to be progressive rock (not as part of a genre but as an approach an according to my definition that involves a fusion of styles into a rock framework and expanding on the rock lexicon. Furthermore, it has the whimsy that can be found in many bands -- for instance, in Canterbury bands. Cream can be quirky and the albums have diversity). The resistance has always surprised me. Being blues-based is not uncommon for bands in the archives (heck, I'd say the excellent Khan's Space Shanties is blues-based). If my memory serves me right, Clapton was upset that that the band was moving farther from blues which is one reason why they split.
I'm going to copy a bit of my post from a former discussion http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=46247 While blues was important to Cream (and how many blues covers did they do?), and some of the band's best work was sort of blues/ psychedelic fusion, the band was considerably more than just a bluesy jam rock band. Not only do I understand the band to have been influential to the progressive rock and jam scenes, but to my ear quite a bit of the music has compositional/ structural and instrumental similarities to Prog. I'd also say that they deviated from bluesy songs, but many such songs were not typical rock -- though had mainstream success. Can find songs with unusual time signatures (helps that they had a jazzy drummer), jazzy elements, and use of various non-typically rock instrumentation. Personally, I think Wheels of Fire is a pretty progressive album of 1968, and while there is the typical blues-based music, music like "Pressed Rat and Warthog", "Anyone for Tennis", and "Passing the Time" which opens in a bluesy fashion show something of the whimsy quite commonly found in Prog (and Proto-Prog). Rather bombastic songs like "Tales of Brave Ulysses" (off Disreali Gears - 1967) and "White Room" have something of an early Prog pedigree too. .............................................................. Of course Cream is commonly describes as jam band and the long pieces (such as excellent live ones) are kind of more extended jams than the tightly structured pieces one would often expect from Prog (as a loose genre). And I wouldn't stop there with song examples. Listening to releases such as Wheels of Fire and Disraeli Gears I find a definite progressive approach to music. Even in shorter songs such as "Those Were the Days" (one of my particular favourites) I hear the similarities to Prog. I'm not posting this as the best example of the band's pedigree, but because I just love it ("Those Were the Days" plus "Deserted Cities"): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHtCEGO-Yow In sum, I think Cream can be described as progressive rock (progressive rock does not need to equal Progressive Rock in the generic sense) and is suitable for Proto-Prog. Edited by Logan - December 22 2009 at 11:44 |
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1234> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |