The Tech/Extreme Prog metal appreciation

I'm glad GTT made it on to PA, that shows how open minded you guys are around here!  
I hope the others make it on too....


In other interesting news, I spoke at length last night with Kevin Hufnagel (on facebook) about developments for Gorguts.... He said that Luc Lemay has composed the whole of six tracks, which are very dense, layered, and dynamic.  Lots of harmonies, solos and other shenanigans.  Apparently Negativa (well Luc and Steeve go in different directions musically; Luc composes, Steeve improvises) sort of dissolved (temporarily?) and Gorguts was revived due to musical differences in the Negativa camp.... although I am sure that Negativa might have a future as well.  I was sort of surprised (yet relieved) to hear that one of my musical idols (Luc Lemay) was actually really down to earth and easy to work with.  I said that I would have had an "I am not worthy!" moment if I were asked to work with him.... yet Kevin says Luc is too cool for that... Kevin told me he has a solo over a blast beat!  f**k!  This is probably my most anticipated release of the last 5-10 years (in metal).

Did we get (australian) Portal in the archives?  Their new one, "Swarth", is their best one yet.  That is another band who has taken the dark element and made it work for them.  If an (experimental) blackened death metal band filtered everything through a dark ambient textural base, and using lovecraftian lore (wearing hoods/robes/severed nooses, and a clock on the singer's head) wrote terrifying and churning opuses to wake the dead and strike fear in the hearts of anyone young or old, this would be it.  (of course not as dark as GTT, but surely on their way)

I wonder if (UK) band Esoteric would ever be added?  They are my favorite psychedelic doom-death band.  just tortured, darkness and woe....

http://www.myspace.com/esotericuk

post your thoughts after you listen to a couple of songs a few times.... give it a chance.... it may take time to sink in.  

avalanchemaster wrote: mithrandir wrote: avalanchemaster wrote: Gnaw Their Tongues is the pinnacle of extremity and darkness.....and I love every minute of it.  Nothing compares to them/him... except for maybe certain 20th century classical, and even most of them don't incorporate heavy distortion into their material. GTT is pretty much the band I've been waiting for all my life, Here-here! good to see you around these parts, old friend!

 

Henry Plainview wrote: I will readily concede that black metal is not a regular part of my listening, but I'm genuinely trying to understand why you would call them that. The classification does make a difference in your argument, because otherwise, to use an extreme example, you could say Avril Lavigne is extremely progressive black metal because she doesn't sound anything like it! I haven't been able to find anybody else who says that (they all say avant-garde metal, which makes more sense to me than black). Let's do it this way: what parts of the album are black metal? The only growl on Sing Along Songs was under female vocals, and the guitars are more hard rock than Natten's Madrigal or Emperor. What would you call a twelve tone piece then?

Well I tried to convey that they (Deathspell Omega) did evolve beyond black metal, and as Jake Kobrin stated, are more avant experimental tech black now.  They started as black metal but went beyond it's limits.  (imo)

The backbone of Deathspell with the blastbeats and tremolo riffing are black metal, the guttural vocals are death/black.  hell, they cross so many boundaries, it is not fair to call them purely black metal.  They even have post rock elements and a distinct Penderecki/Barraque vibe on a lot of the classical elements.

twelve tone can be viewed as either experimental, tone-poem music, and yes even avant garde.  I was merely saying that avant is not always 12tone (and vice versa). 

(speaking of which though, the band Ehnahre is a sort of interesting 12tone deathdoom band.  check out "the man closing up".  good stuff.  Ron Jarzombek and all of his projects are very fond of twelve tone as well.)

the roots of 12tone and tonal variation/experimentation are so tangled and long-winded, (and with my limited perspective) that many composers had their own take on it.  Many rejected it, if not from the getgo, they may have started there and ended their careers with more romantic/baroque stuff.  If I was backed into a corner and told to choose a definition or a bullet, I would, of course call 12tone avant garde (or experimental or both).  I was just trying to show how most of it has been done before.... so at this point in the game, it takes a really out there approach to sound truly avant these days (at least for me).  Those of us who have heard lots of avant stuff know the trappings and nuances of 12tone and avant stuff... and yet (I) yearn for going further and further into the realms of musical experimentation and deconstruction.  Call it a need to question (just like many composers before me) the accepted methods.  Every musician worth his salt must go through this.... even though there are established rules that must be understood first, the boundaries would be limited only by lack in technology that suits the imagination of said composer.

that's all I am saying.  I know what avant garde sounds like, and I love it to death..... but there is room for more experimentation.  Maybe that is the new avant garde?  Isn't that what avant garde means in the first place?  Or has it all been done? 

you were confused?  apparently, so was I.... boy do I feel like a douche! 

so back on topic, (tech metal) check out the band Beheaded Zombie "happiness for all".  they have some interesting mutating riffage, and nice bass work.  an interesting find for sure.

Also Borgia "ecclesia" is interesting thrashy, sort of Deathspell Omega clone stuff, that is original enough to warrant a listen. 

New Psychofagist is out and is a curious find:

http://www.myspace.com/psychofagist


on a slightly aberrant note, the new Thee Maldoror Kollective (need the needle) is a masterpiece of epic, schizo, avant (yep, it's a tag), wide reaching album that is very nearly the next incarnation of Ulver.  f**king astounding album.  A gem for '09...

http://www.myspace.com/jailhousedog

(I know they don't qualify as tech metal, but they sure are fine to these ears)

Henry Plainview wrote: Evolutionary_Sleeper wrote: Jake Kobrin wrote: It depends what DSO album you're talking about, I guess. SMRC is definitely black metal, while anything Kenose or further are more avant-tech-blackened-death... I think they're talking about 2 different bands without realizing it. Deathspell Omega and Diablo Swing Orchestra. Oh wait, avalanche was talking about Deathspell Omega too? Hahaha! This is one of the funnier things that's happened to me lately. I thought that Diablo was implied by mentioning Sing-A-Long Songs for the Damned and Delirious!   Now I can see why you were so upset! :P Deathspell Omega are definately black metal.

That would explain everything. Because Diablo Swing Orchestra clearly isn't black metal while Deathspell Omega certainly is.


Edited by Evolutionary_Sleeper - December 20 2009 at 20:34

Jake Kobrin wrote: It depends what DSO album you're talking about, I guess. SMRC is definitely black metal, while anything Kenose or further are more avant-tech-blackened-death...

I think they're talking about 2 different bands without realizing it.

Deathspell Omega and Diablo Swing Orchestra.

Wait... Are you talking about Shub Niggurath (Mex) or Shub-Niggurath (Fra)??? 

I will readily concede that black metal is not a regular part of my listening, but I'm genuinely trying to understand why you would call them that. The classification does make a difference in your argument, because otherwise, to use an extreme example, you could say Avril Lavigne is extremely progressive black metal because she doesn't sound anything like it! I haven't been able to find anybody else who says that (they all say avant-garde metal, which makes more sense to me than black). Let's do it this way: what parts of the album are black metal? The only growl on Sing Along Songs was under female vocals, and the guitars are more hard rock than Natten's Madrigal or Emperor.

Edited by Henry Plainview - December 20 2009 at 20:01

Henry Plainview wrote: But DSO aren't even close to being black metal, so how does it make sense to judge them by the standards of the genre? They aren't even chaotic. And while I haven't heard a Shub Nigurrath album, I've heard samples, and how are they even close to Harry Partch?   I view avant-garde as a useful way to label all those musical ideas that most people don't like. Even if it's no longer on the vanguard, there's no reason that your string quartet that sounds like Webern shouldn't be called avant-garde.

Of course DSO are black metal (not even close?  what do you call them?).... their beginnings and their very evolution springs from the second and third waves of black metal and post-black metal.  Have you even listened to much black metal?  If so, you must not know what you are listening to.  DSO are clearly black metal, even if they are more evolved than the average black metal band.  Call it a blanket genre/sub-genre.  They are certainly chaotic in many ways.  Maybe that is just in comparison to typical black metal bands.  Are you going to argue with me over whether they are black metal or not?  If so, let's agree to disagree.  You probably want to call them some other term (which really is just splitting hairs)... look them up in almost any metal archival site, and you will see that they are widely regarded as black metal.  whether they fit neatly into that limited category is another story altogether.

You really are putting a lot of extra (semantics) words into my post.  It is incorrect to infer that I was comparing Partch to Shubb Niggurath.  Both could be deemed as either experimental or avant garde.  You yourself claimed to not know the difference.  I think they are two branches of the same tree.  The point I was trying to make (in case I was misunderstood) is that true avant garde rarely even exists anymore.  There are elements of it here and there, but very little full-on avant garde.  I love Webern more than the next guy, but a bunch of twelve tone and color tone movements does not necessarily make one avant garde.  Maybe at the time, when the notion of "breaking new musical ground and going against conventions" was a fresh idea; then avant garde thrived.  Now music just borrows from graves and revives old bones of musical yestercentury.   In short, when things are termed avant garde, I usually regard who is making the reference, their musical perspective and musically historical knowledge (and its limits) and consider whether they know what they are talking about when it comes to avant garde.  It's thrown around quite casually fairly often, to label something that may be too tame when called "experimental" (?)  I think these days it is just another selling point.  We all know that the metal elite and extreme music officionados are caught up in the hipster aspects of music, saying things like "the demos were better" "that's more Kvlt...."
or "hey they are avant garde, that means they are on the fringe of being crazy musically..."  I really think there is a general push in the barely underground to challenge notions of what is acceptable.  It's like the pop world is one hundred years or more behind (wait, they are centuries behind, for the most part; writing cotton candy ditties for the ear), It's nice that people may be starting to come around.  Let's face it, within a generation, things need to be challenged and made to appear fresh to be marketable.  Avant garde, as a term, is just another marketing ploy (if you ask me).  It's true meaning was more tangible when it was more amorphous , when it was being questioned and staked out and challenged some more...from all angles.  Now someone throws in some twelve tone or some unusual instrumentation and sells it as avant garde.  What a load of sh*t.  But this all may be like trying to explain conceptual art to someone who did not engage in the act of making the art itself.  (and I don't always understand certain conceptual work either)

That's how I look at it.  It's all primarily subjective.  Just like we may argue over the genre in which DSO fits, others will argue over the definition of Avant Garde.  Don't get me wrong, this is merely my take on it.  Do with it what you see fit.  I appreciate your input, but please don't twist my words into something else to suit your needs to debate online.