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Negoba 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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 Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:07 |
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It's a subjective reality, we can infer this, but can absolutely never know.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:12 |
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^ sorry, but where's the point to your color argument? I mean, could you wrap up your various posts and state in a few sentences how it relates to the atheist/theist discussion?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:16 |
Are you willing to honestly just discuss the story, which I admittedly made up, and discuss it's merits and failures?
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:21 |
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^ I want to discuss "Atheism vs. Theism". If your color story was off-topic all along, I don't care about it. If it wasn't, then I would be interested how it relates to the topic.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:31 |
Interesting that Lemming didn't have to ask that question.
Black and white is an example of subjective perception matching objective reality. We see in a continous, quantitative manner and the phenomenon in the real world actually is continuous and quantitative.
Color is an example of subjective perception being an arbitrary interpretation of an actual phenomenon. However, the perception is qualitative when the objective reality is continuous and quantitative.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 16:58 |
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^ and this pertains to "is there a god" ... how?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 17:13 |
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If you can't see color and I give you data in color, you think I'm making it up.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 17:15 |
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^ and maybe the chicken didn't cross the road.
Sorry, I fail to see the point.
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jampa17
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2009
Location: Guatemala
Status: Offline
Points: 6802
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 17:30 |
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^ The point is that color is something subjective... and that's how "reality" works... I supose to see and know reality from a point of view in which I see God (call me blue), you see the reality as pure natural "scientific" point of view (you are red) and Rob or who ever see other colors... if any of us try to teach the other what color "reality" SHOULD be, then we get into fundamentalism... while we can agree what is black or white... color is just what each eyes identify, as the same, "reality" is just what each of us understand... but we can agree in the black and white, in the rest, cannot be prooved because each one of us has a "filter" in our eyes... so, color, or life, happen to be the summatory of all the colors... or points of view... then it would not be subjective... get it...???
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 17:30 |
You claim there is no God because you believe there is no evidence. Yet there is a realm of evidence that you dismiss out of hand.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:28 |
 Negoba wrote:
You claim there is no God because you believe there is no evidence. Yet there is a realm of evidence that you dismiss out of hand. |
...I missed it too, apparently. I don't recall any.
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:37 |
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Evidence?
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:43 |
We were discussing this story I MADE UP on page 7:
Imagine that most people had very poor ability to perceive color. Some were born with better ability, some almost none (color-blind) but most could be taught to improve their abilities (much as a good ear in music is). Suppose that some families were more inclined to perceive red, and therefore saw a red-tinged world, and taught their children who became more adept as seeing red than other colors. (Everyone sees black and white just fine). Other families blue, purple, cyan, etc.
Now there were times when people from different families would meet up and talking about how they saw the world. Sometimes fights would break out, because what was most vivid and important in one's person's vision was either absent or barely perceptible in another's.
As people became more and more numerous, eventually one family would win the fight, and teach subsequent generations their color. At first lots of conflict would ensure, but eventually most would at least be able to perceive the culturally dominant color. Now, always there would be some who could perceive other colors as well. And because the world itself was actually multiple colored, these people would seem to understand things no one else could. Again lots of unrest.
Sometimes large cultures of one color would come up against a culture of another. Sometimes they would simply co-exist, but inevitable sometimes fights would break out and occasionally full war.
Eventually as the world co-mingled more and more, it became clear that there were two solutions, everyone had to at least accept the existence or validity of all the colors, or all had to agree to simply live in a black and white world.
Since the second option was more straightforward, and actually allowed people to work on common perception, great strides were made. Many decided to forgo worrying about color at all. Many generations went by where many children were never taught to sharpen their ability to perceive color.
Eventually, some people in the new society decided "I'm not sure there is color at all." and further "Anytime color enters into the picture, people start fighting." And then decided to try and put and end to this color business.
The black and white world is a functional one.
But the world of color is much richer, and whether you perceive it or not, it's there.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:50 |
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I don't get how that constitutes as evidence. I'm not even sure what it's arguing or how it applies to the real world.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19535
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:52 |
Kestrel wrote:
Negoba wrote:
You claim there is no God because you believe there is no evidence. Yet there is a realm of evidence that you dismiss out of hand. |
...I missed it too, apparently. I don't recall any.
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Good point, there's no evidence of God's existence we religious people know that, but....
Kestrel wrote:
If someone has evidence for a belief, I respect it. Otherwise, I don't really care for a belief. I really dislike irrationality. |
Do you have any piece of evidence that can be proven beyond any doubt that God doesn't exist?
I believe in God by pure faith because there's no evidence of him existing, I may e right or wrong but I don't base my belief in evidence
The problem with your logic is that your disbelief is also a form of faith, because you can't prove the contrary, so shouldn't you disrespect your own Atheism?
Iván.
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Negoba
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 24 2008
Location: Big Muddy
Status: Offline
Points: 5208
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:55 |
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It's about subjective experience and the limits of empiricism.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 18:57 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Kestrel wrote:
Negoba wrote:
You claim there is no God because you believe there is no evidence. Yet there is a realm of evidence that you dismiss out of hand. |
...I missed it too, apparently. I don't recall any.
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Good point, there's no evidence of God's existence we religious people know that, but....
Kestrel wrote:
If someone has evidence for a belief, I respect it. Otherwise, I don't really care for a belief. I really dislike irrationality. |
Do you have any piece of evidence that can be proven beyond any doubt that God doesn't exist?
I believe in God by pure faith because there's no evidence of him existing, I may e right or wrong but I don't base my belief in evidence
The problem with your logic is that your disbelief is also a form of faith, because you can't prove the contrary, so shouldn't you disrespect your own Atheism?
Iván.
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I don't deny God's existence. I just don't believe one exists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectrum_of_theistic_probability#Dawkins.27_formulation I agree with Dawkins. I'm a 6, leaning towards a 7.
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 19:00 |
Negoba wrote:
It's about subjective experience and the limits of empiricism. |
Still not getting it. You're assuming that richer world exists.
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Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 5195
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 19:05 |
jampa17 wrote:
^ The point is that color is something subjective... and that's how "reality" works... I supose to see and know reality from a point of view in which I see God (call me blue), you see the reality as pure natural "scientific" point of view (you are red) and Rob or who ever see other colors... if any of us try to teach the other what color "reality" SHOULD be, then we get into fundamentalism... while we can agree what is black or white... color is just what each eyes identify, as the same, "reality" is just what each of us understand... but we can agree in the black and white, in the rest, cannot be prooved because each one of us has a "filter" in our eyes... so, color, or life, happen to be the summatory of all the colors... or points of view... then it would not be subjective... get it...??? |
I get what you're trying to say. I simply don't think that there is any such analogy.
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Kestrel
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 18 2008
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline
Points: 512
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Posted: December 05 2009 at 19:06 |
Epignosis wrote:
Briefly, a three dimensional character would be invisible to a two dimensional character, yet could still come close and be perceived as being near. (place your hand a cm from your flat monitor...you are not touching it, but presumably a flat 2D creature could feel your presence (i.e., warmth, etc).
You could even touch the screen, and the flat creature would perceive a small part of you, but not all of you (compare this to Moses seeing only God's backside).
However, you as the 3D creature could perceive the 2D world all at once, including what is inside the flat person's house, and even all of the flat person's inner workings, all at the same time.
So if God exists in a higher spacial dimension, He could still be physical, and interact with His creation without being seen, speak and be heard but not seen, only show part of himself, observe all of our internal organs at the same time as our external bodies, transport people and things from one place to another as if by magic (but not magic- you see, he would merely have to lift the 3D person or object into a higher dimension and place that person or object elsewhere in the 3D world), etc.
To a 2D creature, a 3D creature would have all manner of abilities and powers. I might even be considered a god to the 2D creature.
Yet I have never "violated" physics (or at least what could be theoretically true of dimensional planes).
I hope this makes sense.
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Alright, I get it, I think. So if God exists, how has he left his mark on our lesser-dimensional world? I would imagine it should be testable.
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