Progarchives.com has always (since 2002) relied on banners ads to cover web hosting fees and all.
Please consider supporting us by giving monthly PayPal donations and help keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.
/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage") |
|
Post Reply 
|
Page <1 89101112 29> |
| Author | ||||
Mr ProgFreak 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
 Posted: December 04 2009 at 09:11 |
|||
|
^ you're not allowed to demand evidence, and evidence to the contrary is being ignored ... that's one of the concepts of religion (and, by analogy, of Intelligent Design / Creationism).
|
||||
 |
||||
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 09:10 |
|||
And what I've been saying is that magic should not bolster belief if you think about it. If God created the world and designed the laws of physics, why should he have to violate them for people to believe in Him? I would think that there being laws and order in the natural world would be better evidence for God than God popping in and doing magic. Not saying God couldn't...but still. |
||||
|
||||
|
stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 09:05 |
|||
|
jampa said:
"but the fact that science cannot prooved it doesn't mean that it actually can't happen" Though that might be an offhand comment, I hope it's not a serious factor in believing in something. It's a bad reason to do so. "you know that there's people who can see the "aura" of other people just by changing their state of mind"? did you know that some people could manipulate the energy of the aura and can move object and even floating in the air... this actually is happening now..." What!? The amount evidence you need to present before saying that is very high indeed. "Again, the bible is to teach the love of God more than magical facts to believe in him" That's true, mostly, but the magical facts are supposed to be corroborating evidence. It's just pretty bad evidence. No one's going to believe that just any random guy you haven't met is God, with no powers. He has to be special to be believed in religiously. Edited by stonebeard - December 04 2009 at 09:06 |
||||
|
||||
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 09:00 |
|||
|
I'm not so much evading the "how" part as much as I'm saying it really doesn't matter to me. Even if I were convinced that evolution were the case (it may be- I am certainly not as knowledgeable on the subject as many here are), it would not disrupt my belief in the Bible one bit. There are many biblical scholars who accept evolution and the Bible as fact. Whatever the case, it's not as important to me as it is to you. This would be
a bigger deal if the Bible were meant to be a book that gives us the
details about where the universe came from but it isn't.
My function here has largely been to point out when someone is likely misreading what the Bible says...and I think that's fair to do. If, in the Christian Thread, I made an inaccurate remark regarding evolution, I am sure someone would be pop in and let me know (and I would hope that they would, since as I've said, that subject is not an area in which I am well-versed, and to be honest, probably not one I ever will be). I largely believe the Bible because of literary, historical, and cultural data, like fulfilled prophecies and also what is called typology- in fact, if anything convinces me the Bible is the word of God, it's typology...simply fascinating. So no, I am not "irrational" if I give the Bible the benefit of the doubt when it comes to a difficult subject of minor consequence (and yes, creation is a minor matter in context- the Bible only gives it two full chapters). True faith (not blind belief, mind you) would have me do that...it would not be true faith if I found a difficult passage that didn't mesh with scientific observation and immediately threw up my arms and said, "Well that's it! The Bible is garbage!" Similarly, I wouldn't stop trusting God just because terrible things started happening in my life. I hope you can appreciate that.  Much of what I have learned regarding the subject of evolution was in my university biology class. My professor was a cantankerous old man who blatantly told us the Bible was a book of lies. Yet the "evidence" he was presenting was quite dogmatic and not really evidence. He had an obvious chip on his shoulder. And no offense to Dean or some of you others- I genuinely appreciate the time you took to respond- but I am not convinced by any of the explanations given with respect to the phenomenon of two genders. Two extremely complex reproductive systems developing simultaneously over millions of years, and yet still functioning enough to keep the species viably reproducing is just too much for me to accept. I'm sorry. Call me lazy or irrational if you like. Honestly, the big deal regarding creation and evolution isn't a big deal to me. I'm not an expert in evolutionary biology and I don't pretend to be. As I said, there are scholars who accept evolution and the Bible as fact. Perhaps their explanations could satisfy you- I know mine couldn't. Out of curiosity, I wonder why all of this matters so much to you. If people believe in fairy tales and magic (I certainly don't, but you claim I do), what does it matter to you? Is this out of some sort of bizarre quest for personal validation? Just wondering. Why do my posts always start small and wind up so long?   |
||||
|
||||
|
jampa17
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 04 2009 Location: Guatemala Status: Offline Points: 6802 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 08:57 |
|||
|
I see some progress today... this Thread is becoming very interesting... is kind of "the Corner were Epignosis explains everything" and is very interesting... just a couple of things, it's still early and I have to do some work so I'll be brief...
You know progfreak that there are people who can walk on water still today...? you know that there's people who can see the "aura" of other people just by changing their state of mind"? did you know that some people could manipulate the energy of the aura and can move object and even floating in the air... this actually is happening now... my advise is that you documented it... and then you'll see that maybe science has not reach until today how Jesus walk on water... but the fact that science cannot prooved it doesn't mean that it actually can't happen... as Epignosis said, maybe if we reach an "extra dimensional" explanation somewhere, we can understand how Jesus did it... but at the end... Jesus wasn't a little box of fireworks... Again, the bible is to teach the love of God more than magical facts to believe in him... I'll come back soon...
|
||||
|
|
||||
|
||||
|
stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005 Location: NE Indiana Status: Offline Points: 28057 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 08:53 |
|||
|
So, 'bout that evolution huh?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 08:16 |
|||
Of course he got aggravated, since they were difficult to perform. 
So why are you constantly evading the "how" part? Evolution and Creation (Genesis) are mutually exclusive, how would you solve that problem? Exactly how did it all happen so that both the evidence at hand and the description that the Bible provides are satisfied?
Only yesterday I read some comments about that in Victor Stenger's new book: http://www.amazon.com/New-Atheism-Taking-Science-Reason/dp/1591027519/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1259936113&sr=8-1 Maybe I'll manage this weekend to look up the passage and give you some info on the books that provide the detailed evidence for this claim. Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 04 2009 at 08:19 |
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 08:09 |
|||
Take the "walking on water" part ... how could you explain it today? Some of these things simply don't work at all. Or take the earthquake that is supposed to have happened when Jesus was crucified - it wasn't reported by any other historian in the area. Those bits are key arguments used by preachers to persuade people ... that makes them so important. Modern movies are not realistic either, that much is obvious ... but few people base their life on John McClane, and neither should they base it on Jesus IMO. |
||||
|
||||
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 07:17 |
|||
You and I have a different view of what constitutes a "miracle." Humphrey's does a great job explaining what a miracle is (notice how is title even calls them miracles despite them having perfectly natural causes). Christianity is not based on miracles (as you define them) anyway- even Jesus got aggravated because that's what people were starting to focus on. The purpose of Christianity is to give glory to God and enjoy Him forever. Man is sinful and can do nothing to ever please God on his own, so his only recourse is to accept Christ's sacrifice. This thread focuses on the "how" of creation, whereas the Bible is much more concerned with the "why." I consider God a higher dimensional being anyway...so I think it's perfectly reasonable to believe that some of the more peculiar miracles by Jesus may have an extra-dimensional explanation. And no, I do not believe that any of the Bible has "been confirmed to be pure works of fiction." I spent many years seriously questioning the Bible and some of its difficulties, and every time I've dutifully studied them and weight the arguments regarding them, I have- without fail- come away more enriched and devoted than before. |
||||
|
||||
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 06:55 |
|||
Oh, I didn't think that of you at all Dean...you just provided me with a good segue, that's all. I suppose I shouldn't have hit "quote." |
||||
|
||||
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 06:51 |
|||
You could see it as nothing more than special effects thrown in to keep peoples attention if that helps - or do you really think John McClane can kill a helicopter with a car?
 |
||||
|
What?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 06:50 |
|||
|
^ big parts of the bible have been confirmed to be pure works of fiction though ... but be that as it may, even those parts that are not, if they contain no miracles, what's left then to base a religion upon?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 06:48 |
|||
|
I've been arguing for that this whole time.
Again, Colin J. Humphreys (he is a science professor at Cambridge) wrote a book entitled, The Miracles of Exodus: A Scientist's Discovery of the Extraordinary Natural Causes of the Biblical Stories. Also, you continue to misapply the term "literal." I still take the Bible literally, but I have to meet it on its terms, not mine, and that means trying to understand the text through an Ancient Near Eastern lens (rather than a 21st century one). This method takes more effort and work, but I believe that is what must be done to understand any ancient historical narrative, not just the Bible. If an ancient Hebrew person saw a volcanic eruption for the first time, he would be limited in how he describes it (especially since Hebrew has a very limited range of words to begin with)...see Exodus 20:18 for exactly this. Trying to make sense of his description is not taking the account allegorically- it's simply doing one's homework to understand what was described with the limited tools given him. Check out Humphrey's work. It's a fascinating read and one of my favorite pieces of nonfiction. |
||||
|
||||
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 06:37 |
|||
|
||||
|
What?
|
||||
|
||||
|
Mr ProgFreak
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 08 2008 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 5195 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 06:33 |
|||
|
^ So you're essentially de-mystifying the bible, claiming that most of the "miracles" described there were actually natural phenomena. Somehow I find that hard to believe - IMO many stories are simply pure fiction. Some may indeed have been misinterpretations of natural phenomena, but that doesn't change the fact that many religions based on the book are taking them literally ... ignoring every fact that proves them wrong.
|
||||
|
||||
|
Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2007 Location: Raeford, NC Status: Offline Points: 32524 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 06:15 |
|||
Just a quick thought this morning... I'm not sure why people get bent out of shape about the Bible describing natural phenomenon from the authors' limited scientific perspective. Consider John, author of Revelation. If John did see a vision of the future, and he saw missiles, tanks, helicopters, or The Teletubbies, it would be reasonable to assume that he would describe those horrors as best he could using the first century language. Similarly, I think when the Bible talks of demons, it is their language for describing what we call germs, bacteria, viruses, etc. Not having the same level of sophistication to understand the world does not mean that the authors of the Bible were writing fiction when they recorded their observations, any more than I would if I observed something this morning I don't understand but science can one day explain perfectly well. |
||||
|
||||
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 06:01 |
|||
I see no sphere. The Book of Job refers to boundary line separating light and darkness on the surface of the ocean as a circle (ie 2 dimensional) ... the horizon ... the description fits a flat-earth just as well as a spherical one. I actually do not doubt that some people in the middle east in ancient times perceived the Earth as spherical - especially those who had seafaring traditions, I just think selecting that text as "proof" is dubious given the number of other texts that describe a flatter earth - most western views of a flat-earth come from the bible descriptions alone. The whole idea that people believed in a flat-earth until Columbus has been dismissed for some time now - in 240BCE the Greeks measured the circumference of the Earth using mathematics that assumed it was spherical. Of course that's still potentially 1500 years after Job (assuming the book of Job was contemporaneous with the man himself).
Similarly I think seeing the hydrologic cycle there is also wishful thinking - it says water is stored in the clouds, (yet they do not burst ... so they are like bladders), it does not say where the water in the clouds comes from, this process is not the hydrologic cyclic process since it requires divine intervention to gather the moisture and make it rain.
/edited for spelling Edited by Dean - December 04 2009 at 06:25 |
||||
|
What?
|
||||
|
||||
|
halabalushindigus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 05 2009 Location: San Diego Status: Offline Points: 1438 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 02:54 |
|||
|
Good morning Dean. The Evolution vs Creation point was delivered well in the book "Planet of The Apes
We ASSUME certain things, only to be fooled. My point is that We don't need to think about Creationism
We just have to try to be more and more intelligent and understanding. I love all you guys
|
||||
|
assume the power 1586/14.3 |
||||
|
||||
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 02:44 |
|||
|
...it's 8:45 in the morning.
|
||||
|
What?
|
||||
|
||||
|
halabalushindigus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 05 2009 Location: San Diego Status: Offline Points: 1438 |
Posted: December 04 2009 at 02:41 |
|||
|
All of you children go to bed RIGHT NOW, and I MEAN IT!
|
||||
|
assume the power 1586/14.3 |
||||
|
||||
|
Post Reply
|
Page <1 89101112 29> |
| Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |
Evolution vs. Creationism
Topic Options
stonebeard wrote: