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stonebeard View Drop Down
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Points: 28057 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 14:27
This all strikes me like a pedantic nanny going around tidying up something that wasn't "wrong" in the first place, but more to her/his liking.
 
The only thing this does is make topic creators resentful and think admins treat them like babies. (In cases like these recent ones. If a newbie comes in and just makes an 100% off-topic title, then change it and tell him or something).


Edited by stonebeard - October 27 2009 at 14:29
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Henry Plainview View Drop Down
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:40
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

In Epignosis case it seems he did object to the change, as he says he changed it back. It seems he did not want people to know from the title that the thread was about Gentle Giant. 
I thought it was pretty clear it was about Gentle Giant when he named it "The Power and the Glory". If somebody doesn't know that, there are any number of places one could discover that fact, including the thread itself. Rob should not be obligated to make sure that everything he says is completely clear to somebody who just stumbled off the Miley Cyrus forums because if somebody who has never heard of Gentle Giant before, isn't it his loss that nobody read his thread, not yours?
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:49
There's certainly nothing sinister about our actions. The admin team are first and foremost members like everyone else, despite some of the implications made in this thread, our only motivation is the good of the site.
 
This thread was originally about posts being edited. If a post is edited, the system automatically adds a notation to that effect, telling you who edited it. If a title is edited it does not do that. Personally, I really don't understand why an enhancement to a thread title to assist other members is such a big deal. I don't understand why, in the case of the "Power and the glory" thread, adding that it is about Gentle Giant is not seen as helping our members. Is there a general feeling that in the case of the P&TG thread, it was better that the thread title did not mention Gentle Giant? This is fundamental to identifying whether the objection is actually to titles changing, or whether is is to the notification of the change.
 
I am trying to understand whether there is general acceptance that the better the thread title, the more helpful it is to the members.
 
The over-riding challenge the admin team face is managing our time. Of course we would like to do lots more, but like everyone else, we have real lives too. People demand that we do this or do that, but at the end of the day, we have to do as much as we can within our own time constraints.
 
Getting back to the point here, I perceive than a few people are concerned about members not being advised when thread titles are changed. What we often find when we do tell people what we have done is that they think they are being told off. A low key approach seems to work best for the vast majority. Once again, we can't win though. If we post a message in the thread saying we have changed the title, it looks like we are calling out the thread starter. If we send a PM, the others posting in this thread to object to the thread starter not being advised will still not know that we have advised them.
 
I am now unclear about whether there is an acceptance that thread titles can sometimes be improved to help the membership as a whole. There is of course a limitation on the space available in the title, but can someone explain why they do not want the members to get the best possible indication from the title as to what the thread is about? Or is there now acceptance by most that thread titles can sometimes be more helpful than the one they are given at birth.
 
Finally, I really do find it soul destroying when derogatory remarks are made about the admin team as part of the responses. I'll be happy to continue this discussion with those who post in a friendly way (RF4 etc.), but will avoid posts which are hurtful or accusatory.
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MovingPictures07 View Drop Down
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 15:59
This isn't the only case of ghost editing. I also had my poll edited without my consent just recently, and it wasn't the first time.

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=62282

That's the thread. It was changed from "Your Favorite?" to "Your Favorite of my favourite bands". When I saw the edit, I changed it back immediately.

1. That's not what I'm saying in my first post at all.
2. It doesn't even assist anyone who would take an extra 2 seconds of their time to click the poll to see which bands are included (clearly me asking "your favorite" entails a list of bands and that a person chooses their favorite of the ones listed.

What really bugs me is that the changes aren't for the good of the forum at all---the only case I could see for admin editing is if someone is clearly violating the rules. If our own polls suffer because someone doesn't know that the Power and the Glory is an album by Gentle Giant, then should those people even be voting in the first place? And it only takes another 2 seconds to click the poll and see what Robert or anyone else is talking about.

Not only that, but I have never been notified. If I had been, that would be a totally different story.
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Points: 66607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:04
As Bob said though, the change that was made was not one that was a sinister change the way that you are making it out to be.  Clearly, you should have come up with a more creative title than "Your Favorite".  Wink  The admin who edited the title was only trying to help.  Of course in this instance, the help resulted in an incorrect title. 
 
As far as the being notified, according to Bob's post, when an admin edits a title it does not automatically provide the message that it was edited, like it does when an admin edits a post.  Honestly, there are far more interesting things and important things in the world to have a coronary over other than an admin trying to make a thread title be more relevant.


Edited by rushfan4 - October 27 2009 at 16:06
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MovingPictures07 View Drop Down
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:09
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

As Bob said though, the change that was made was not one that was a sinister change the way that you are making it out to be.  Clearly, you should have come up with a more creative title than "Your Favorite".  Wink  The admin who edited the title was only trying to help.  Of course in this instance, the help resulted in an incorrect title. 
 
As far as the being notified, according to Bob's post, when an admin edits a title it does not automatically provide the message that it was edited, like it does when an admin edits a post.  Honestly, there are far more interesting things and important things in the world to have a coronary over other than an admin trying to make a thread title be more relevant.


Oh, I know it's not sinister--nor am I making it out to be sinister (it's not like they changed the title to "Your Favorite of an Arsehole's Favorites" or something. LOL

I just think it's frustrating to have your post edited for no particularly good reason and without the little message showing up in the post (or at least some sort of notification as to why my post was edited).


Plus, I echo Drew's sentiments exactly:
"This all strikes me like a pedantic nanny going around tidying up something that wasn't "wrong" in the first place, but more to her/his liking.
 
The only thing this does is make topic creators resentful and think admins treat them like babies. (In cases like these recent ones. If a newbie comes in and just makes an 100% off-topic title, then change it and tell him or something)."


What's the point anyway?



Edited by MovingPictures07 - October 27 2009 at 16:10
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Points: 66607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:14

We already discussed one reason for making the change that was made to Rob's title yesterday in the SR, so I am not going to repeat that discussion.  Another reason why that change was useful is for when forum users do searches in the forums.  Either they remember seeing a Gentle Giant thread, or they want to create a Gentle Giant thread.  If that person does a search on Gentle Giant, Rob's thread isn't going to come up.  With the current title, it will come up in a search.  (Yes, I realize the original title change to GG would not have helped with the search function, but the current thread title is far better for site and user purposes).  Maybe it will prevent one newbie from re-posting a "favorite Gentle Giant song from the Power and the Glory" poll.  Not likely, but maybe.



Edited by rushfan4 - October 27 2009 at 16:15
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MovingPictures07 View Drop Down
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Points: 32181 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:20
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

We already discussed one reason for making the change that was made to Rob's title yesterday in the SR, so I am not going to repeat that discussion.  Another reason why that change was useful is for when forum users do searches in the forums.  Either they remember seeing a Gentle Giant thread, or they want to create a Gentle Giant thread.  If that person does a search on Gentle Giant, Rob's thread isn't going to come up.  With the current title, it will come up in a search.  (Yes, I realize the original title change to GG would not have helped with the search function, but the current thread title is far better for site and user purposes).  Maybe it will prevent one newbie from re-posting a "favorite Gentle Giant song from the Power and the Glory" poll.  Not likely, but maybe.



I can understand that with Robert's thread, but what about ones where that function doesn't make any difference anyway? (like the one I posted, or other polls with more than several bands in them)
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Epignosis View Drop Down
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:27
It isn't that huge of a deal.  If the answer is no, fine.

By the way, people are assuming I meant the secondary definition of sinister, where in fact I meant the first- ominous or baleful.  I am not insinuating that Bob, Dean, et al are evil or wicked.  I am saying that this situation indicates a power that runs unchecked (theoretically, someone can change a thread title to "rushfan4 is a Moron" and no one would know who did it).  Remember, when a thread title is changed without an admin saying he changed it, it looks like those are the OP's words.

On more than one occasion a thread title was changed to something that was not more helpful than the original (and in Alex's case, just plain inaccurate).

But anyway, you see I have not changed my poll's title back to the original because it was explained to me (elsewhere and after the fact by non-admins) that having the band name would be helpful for the search engine and artist page.   For the fifth time, I don't mind such edits that improve the functionality of the site- I would just like a friendly post or something saying "Hi, I changed your thread title so it pops up in the search engine."

That would take all of ten seconds.

But again, if the answer is no, no big deal.  I certainly won't lose sleep over such a minor annoyance.
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Points: 66607 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 16:28
Originally posted by MovingPictures07 MovingPictures07 wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

We already discussed one reason for making the change that was made to Rob's title yesterday in the SR, so I am not going to repeat that discussion.  Another reason why that change was useful is for when forum users do searches in the forums.  Either they remember seeing a Gentle Giant thread, or they want to create a Gentle Giant thread.  If that person does a search on Gentle Giant, Rob's thread isn't going to come up.  With the current title, it will come up in a search.  (Yes, I realize the original title change to GG would not have helped with the search function, but the current thread title is far better for site and user purposes).  Maybe it will prevent one newbie from re-posting a "favorite Gentle Giant song from the Power and the Glory" poll.  Not likely, but maybe.



I can understand that with Robert's thread, but what about ones where that function doesn't make any difference anyway? (like the one I posted, or other polls with more than several bands in them)
Take it for what it is worth, but I'm sure that the admin that changed your thread title was trying to clarify that you were providing a list of favorite bands, versus providing a list of favorite vegetables.  In your opening post you say that these are some of your favorite bands that you have been listening to recently, so a more appropriate title change may have referenced that these were recent listened to bands, versus overall favorite bands.  I'm not saying that the change was necessary, but I also don't think it is a big deal that a change to the title was made.  Certainly would have been worse if the title had been changed pursuant to your previous post or if it had been changed to "Rushfan4 is a moron". Angry


Edited by rushfan4 - October 27 2009 at 16:30
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Padraic View Drop Down
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 17:53
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

This thread was originally about posts being edited. If a post is edited, the system automatically adds a notation to that effect, telling you who edited it. If a title is edited it does not do that. Personally, I really don't understand why an enhancement to a thread title to assist other members is such a big deal. I don't understand why, in the case of the "Power and the glory" thread, adding that it is about Gentle Giant is not seen as helping our members. Is there a general feeling that in the case of the P&TG thread, it was better that the thread title did not mention Gentle Giant? This is fundamental to identifying whether the objection is actually to titles changing, or whether is is to the notification of the change.

It's always been the latter - I appear to have failed spectacularly at communicating this.
 
I am trying to understand whether there is general acceptance that the better the thread title, the more helpful it is to the members.

It's a question of balance:  the marginal utility of adding the band name to the title, when simply clicking on the thread would probably provide the necessary information, vs. annoying thread starters by unilaterally changing their title with no notification.  Sinkadotentree recently did some prog polls where the title was an attractive actress or other famous woman - it was funny, and at least for me, made me more inclined to click on it.
 
The over-riding challenge the admin team face is managing our time. Of course we would like to do lots more, but like everyone else, we have real lives too. People demand that we do this or do that, but at the end of the day, we have to do as much as we can within our own time constraints.
 
A challenge every collaborator faces - of course, in this the case the minimal effort solution would be to leave the titles as they were, n'est-ce pas?  Wink  (* Note:  I'm careful to exclude from all this titles that actually violate forum rules on profanity, etc.; obviously those can and should be changed - but a small note indicating why would still be courteous, in my view)

Getting back to the point here, I perceive than a few people are concerned about members not being advised when thread titles are changed. What we often find when we do tell people what we have done is that they think they are being told off. A low key approach seems to work best for the vast majority. Once again, we can't win though. If we post a message in the thread saying we have changed the title, it looks like we are calling out the thread starter. If we send a PM, the others posting in this thread to object to the thread starter not being advised will still not know that we have advised them.

Certainly the titles can be changed in such a way (post editing) as to leave an edit tag, with a small reason attached, and I don't see this as a huge time investment.  If it is, perhaps too many titles are being changed?
 
I am now unclear about whether there is an acceptance that thread titles can sometimes be improved to help the membership as a whole.

They can, yes, although again I fail to see that such a thing makes a huge impact.

There is of course a limitation on the space available in the title, but can someone explain why they do not want the members to get the best possible indication from the title as to what the thread is about? Or is there now acceptance by most that thread titles can sometimes be more helpful than the one they are given at birth.

Because people are smarter than that?  Good polls/threads give a detailed indication about what a topic starter wants to discuss.  Do we really need "Best song on Western Culture, an album by Henry Cow released in 1979 featuring compositions by Tim Hodgkinson and Lindsay Cooper?" as a title?
 
Finally, I really do find it soul destroying when derogatory remarks are made about the admin team as part of the responses. I'll be happy to continue this discussion with those who post in a friendly way (RF4 etc.), but will avoid posts which are hurtful or accusatory.

Well, I tried to be civil at least.  This is my last post on the matter anyways.
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Henry Plainview View Drop Down
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Points: 16715 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2009 at 21:19
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

This thread was originally about posts being edited. If a post is edited, the system automatically adds a notation to that effect, telling you who edited it. If a title is edited it does not do that. Personally, I really don't understand why an enhancement to a thread title to assist other members is such a big deal. I don't understand why, in the case of the "Power and the glory" thread, adding that it is about Gentle Giant is not seen as helping our members. Is there a general feeling that in the case of the P&TG thread, it was better that the thread title did not mention Gentle Giant? This is fundamental to identifying whether the objection is actually to titles changing, or whether is is to the notification of the change.
I'm not accusing you of anything, and the point is why should you change Rob's thread? As the person making the change to someone else, the burden of proof is on you. I don't think adding Gentle Giant is any better or worse because anybody who knows about Gentle Giant will recognize it, and someone who doesn't isn't going to vote in the poll anyway. As for reasons to want it as intended, The Power and the Glory is snappier and shorter, making the forum easier to browse for the 99% of us who are aware of famous bands' album titles.
Quote The over-riding challenge the admin team face is managing our time. 
 
And I don't see why adding unnecessary words is a good use of your time. You could, for example, be removing the blatant discussion of illegal substances in the Your Vices thread.
Quote Getting back to the point here, I perceive than a few people are concerned about members not being advised when thread titles are changed. What we often find when we do tell people what we have done is that they think they are being told off. A low key approach seems to work best for the vast majority. Once again, we can't win though. If we post a message in the thread saying we have changed the title, it looks like we are calling out the thread starter. If we send a PM, the others posting in this thread to object to the thread starter not being advised will still not know that we have advised them.
Alternatively, you could simply not edit things that don't require the OP to be "called out". Problem solved. ;-)

Edited by Henry Plainview - October 27 2009 at 21:33
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Easy Livin View Drop Down
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Points: 15585 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 03:44
Thanks for the constructive discussion guys, I've no more to add just now.
 
As far as the discussion of illegal substances is concerned, absolutely. This is where our collaborators have a special responsibility. There has not been one report of that thread to the admin team via the report button.
 
(Edit - and having just visited it, it looks OK)


Edited by Easy Livin - October 28 2009 at 03:47
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Dean View Drop Down
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2009 at 03:45
Originally posted by Henry Plainview Henry Plainview wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

This thread was originally about posts being edited. If a post is edited, the system automatically adds a notation to that effect, telling you who edited it. If a title is edited it does not do that. Personally, I really don't understand why an enhancement to a thread title to assist other members is such a big deal. I don't understand why, in the case of the "Power and the glory" thread, adding that it is about Gentle Giant is not seen as helping our members. Is there a general feeling that in the case of the P&TG thread, it was better that the thread title did not mention Gentle Giant? This is fundamental to identifying whether the objection is actually to titles changing, or whether is is to the notification of the change.
I'm not accusing you of anything, and the point is why should you change Rob's thread? As the person making the change to someone else, the burden of proof is on you. I don't think adding Gentle Giant is any better or worse because anybody who knows about Gentle Giant will recognize it, and someone who doesn't isn't going to vote in the poll anyway. As for reasons to want it as intended, The Power and the Glory is snappier and shorter, making the forum easier to browse for the 99% of us who are aware of famous bands' album titles.
Why would you assume that only people who know Gentle Giant would be interested in that thread?  Just because they can't vote doesn't mean they can't read. Someone unfamiliar with GG may find the results of the poll to be helpful, it may pique their interest enough to want to hear it, to see for themselves why Proclamation is more popular than Valedictory for example, but then they may think it's about the Saxon album or a Raven song or the Graham Greene novel opened in the wrong lounge and not bother opening it at all. Is it not better for a thread to be inclusive rather than exclusive?
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