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Negoba View Drop Down
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2009 at 16:04

The whole section where Jesus either clarifies or updates the law is a challenging piece of scripture. The following is the hardest:

22But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment; and whosoever shall say to his brother, `Raca,' shall be in danger of the council; but whosoever shall say, `Thou fool,' shall be in danger of hell fire. 
 23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar and there rememberest that thy brother hath aught against thee, 
 24leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way. First be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. 
 25"Agree with thine adversary quickly while thou art on the way with him, lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
 
 
Literally, one can be subject to judgment to hell for anger against a neighbor...a parallel is that you are just as guilty of adultery for lust as committing the act.
 
To all these things I will say only one thing that is indeed a personal experience. Many people speak of justice as an ideal. As this passage and others hint at, none of us wants to subject to true justice. In fact, God (or fate or the Universe or however) has afforded most of us much much better than justice. Why? One explanation is that the Universe is benevolent, i.e. God loves us. And the aforementioned passage seems to say, rather than relying on the courts, i.e. justice to resolve your differences, try to make amends in a way satisfactory to both parties. Furthermore, until you resolve things in this way, you are not ready to be a follower of Jesus.
 
I have been given far better than justice in this life, and for that I am grateful. I must find it within myself to then extend that type of giving to others "better than justice."
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 1416 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2009 at 17:08
Sorry to interrupt this intense theological debate LOL, but I just felt somewhat obligated to check in.
 
A lifelong Catholic myself, I'm glad this thread exists. Just found it.
 
So God bless, and rock on.
 
(afraid I don't have much of anything valuable to say LOL)


Edited by Tarquin Underspoon - October 15 2009 at 17:08
"WAAAAAAOOOOOUGH!    WAAAAAAAUUUUGGHHHH!!   WAAAAAOOOO!!!"

-The Great Gig in the Sky
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2009 at 17:25
Originally posted by Negoba Negoba wrote:

I have been given far better than justice in this life, and for that I am grateful. I must find it within myself to then extend that type of giving to others "better than justice."


Excellent point, Jay- that's one major point about Christian living.  When someone offends us, we [should] forgive them.  Here's a relevant passage:

Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?"
Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.
"Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.
When he began the reckoning, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents;
and as he could not pay, his lord ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made.
So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.'
And out of pity for him the lord of that servant released him and forgave him the debt.
But that same servant, as he went out, came upon one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and seizing him by the throat he said, 'Pay what you owe.'
So his fellow servant fell down and besought him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.'
He refused and went and put him in prison till he should pay the debt.
When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their lord all that had taken place.
Then his lord summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you besought me;
and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?'
And in anger his lord delivered him to the jailers, till he should pay all his debt. So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart." (Matthew 18:21-35)

I would say that a Christian could cite the golden rule this way: "Do unto others because God has done unto you."

Naturally I don't believe this applies to life or family or nation-threatening issues, but on your end you make a fantastic point. Clap


Edited by Epignosis - October 15 2009 at 17:25
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Negoba View Drop Down
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Points: 5210 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2009 at 19:45

In the end, I can only interpret for myself. For family threatening issues, I pray I will know what is right when the given situation arises. For nation-threatening ones, I similarly pray that we all make the right decision when the situation arises.

I do not believe in absolute pacifism. I do believe we need to understand just how evil necessary evils are. They still stain your soul, as pointed out from the story of David.
 
Rob, though I know that Scripture well, reading over it again reminds me of the ways in which I have not "paid forward" the mercy of God, even today. Good fodder for meditation.
You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 25 2009 at 11:29
Merry Christmas, from a sinner on the side of the rebel Jesus.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2010 at 10:47
So Pat Robertson thinks Haiti got hit with a massive earthquake because of some nineteenth century pact with the devil.  Reminds me of his concurrence when the late Jerry Falwell asserted that the September 11th, 2001 terrorist attacks occurred because of homosexuals and abortionists.

Robertson fancies himself a prophet even if he does not use the terminology.  Some may recall his other various predictions throughout the last few decades.

But Pat admits he isn't a perfect prophet: “I have a relatively good track record,” he said. “Sometimes I miss.”

But what saith the Scripture?

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 states:

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Jesus warns in Matthew 5:15-

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Perhaps Robertson, Falwell, and their ilk ought to pay closer attention to the words of Jesus Christ:

Luke 13:1-5-

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 15784 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2010 at 10:54
People like him are just profiteers. They use religion to manipulate people's basic fears as a means to obtain power and wealth for themselves.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2010 at 11:58
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

So Pat Robertson thinks Haiti got hit with a massive earthquake because of some nineteenth century pact with the devil.  Reminds me of his concurrence when the late Jerry Falwell asserted that the September 11th, 2001 terrorist attacks occurred because of homosexuals and abortionists.

Robertson fancies himself a prophet even if he does not use the terminology.  Some may recall his other various predictions throughout the last few decades.

But Pat admits he isn't a perfect prophet: “I have a relatively good track record,” he said. “Sometimes I miss.”

But what saith the Scripture?

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 states:

You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.

Jesus warns in Matthew 5:15-

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.

Perhaps Robertson, Falwell, and their ilk ought to pay closer attention to the words of Jesus Christ:

Luke 13:1-5-

Now there were some present at that time who told Jesus about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had mixed with their sacrifices. Jesus answered, “Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans because they suffered this way? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Or those eighteen who died when the tower in Siloam fell on them- do you think they were more guilty than all the others living in Jerusalem? I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.”

 
Excellent words Rob... these is more clear than Creedence music...!!! what is there to don't understand...??
Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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Points: 170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2010 at 07:03
Charlie Manson is a good example of what religion and bad intentions can get you others have done more but none as damning an example what evil can come out of convincing people youv'e got a direct line to God and through you IT is telling you what 2 do.
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 14:50
"Why do you look for the living among the dead? He is not here; he has risen!"


Happy Easter everyone.  Smile 

I posted this video before, but it never fails to resonate with my heart.


Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 4006 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 04 2010 at 17:15
^ Happy Easter, Robert Smile
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 05 2010 at 09:10

I can't see the video... but I guess in home I will check it out Rob... yeap... Jesus is alive and with us... Happy Easter to everyone... Hug
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 08:13
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

I have a question to Rob... I was seeing a documentary about posession and demoniatic presences... what do you think about it...? because I remember that you don't believe in the soul... but demons are mention several times in the Bible and even they obbey to Jesus in one part... what is your understanding about this demons Rob? because I remember that you don't believe in the Devil right...? just curious... I know maybe this is not the right thread... but well... this thread is about dissbelieving right...? thanks...



Rather than do work that is already been done, I will refer to this article, which fairly accurately sums up my view on demons:

http://www.biblebasicsonline.com/english/Study06GodandEvil/0603Demons.html

If that article doesn't answer your question, or you'd like clarification, feel free to ask.  Smile
_____

Now that I've responded to your question, I'd like you to answer one from me:

What would happen if Pope Benedict XVI told everyone that he did not know Christ, and did so three times?
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 1338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 08:31
Greetings to all i hope your Easter was happy and holySmile  I have a question
 
As a beleiver(but of no settled faith) i have been interested in some attacks on the Bible by the likes of Richard Dawkins where claims are made that Moses practiced and is guilty of genocide ,murder and rape(such as in Numbers 31) and where God is claimed to sanction rape and pillage(Deuteronomy20 10-14) and other passages,something i just dont beleive a consistant  God would allow , and knowing also that Bible misquoting and "Out Of Contexting" is an international sport i would be interested in hearing your views.
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 08:48
Originally posted by dude dude wrote:

Greetings to all i hope your Easter was happy and holySmile  I have a question
 
As a beleiver(but of no settled faith) i have been interested in some attacks on the Bible by the likes of Richard Dawkins where claims are made that Moses practiced and is guilty of genocide ,murder and rape(such as in Numbers 31) and where God is claimed to sanction rape and pillage(Deuteronomy20 10-14) and other passages,something i just dont beleive a consistant  God would allow , and knowing also that Bible misquoting and "Out Of Contexting" is an international sport i would be interested in hearing your views.


The magnitude of this subject is great, but I must say it was one of the most rewarding studies I took upon myself several summers ago.

I'd like to focus on the Numbers 31 passage (War with Midian) since it is the more comprehensive passage of the two.

Let me locate my notes, and I'll get back with you.  Smile
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 1338 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 08:57
Epignosis:Thanks i look forward to it!
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 11:40
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

I have a question to Rob... I was seeing a documentary about posession and demoniatic presences... what do you think about it...? because I remember that you don't believe in the soul... but demons are mention several times in the Bible and even they obbey to Jesus in one part... what is your understanding about this demons Rob? because I remember that you don't believe in the Devil right...? just curious... I know maybe this is not the right thread... but well... this thread is about dissbelieving right...? thanks...



Rather than do work that is already been done, I will refer to this article, which fairly accurately sums up my view on demons:

http://www.biblebasicsonline.com/english/Study06GodandEvil/0603Demons.html

If that article doesn't answer your question, or you'd like clarification, feel free to ask.  Smile
_____

Now that I've responded to your question, I'd like you to answer one from me:

What would happen if Pope Benedict XVI told everyone that he did not know Christ, and did so three times?
 
Thanks Rob, I'm already in the article... I let you know if I miss something there... you should renamed this thread for something like "Answering the questions of Faith, by Epignosis" LOL... I will read the article first and then answer to you question... OK?
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 11:58
I read your article and I don't feel my question answered... well, I don't know if you don't believe in Angels as well, but I don't see demons as gods, so, I don't see why I could discount them as gods... now, they didn't quote the demons that Jesus faced in shore of the lake and that they even go down to their knees, and even ask to leave the person and go to the pigs that were near there...
 
I feel like the explanation is good, but is not the answer I was searching for. I mean, angels did not exists then? I know, they are messengers, but according to the tradition, the Devil is an angel, not a god, so there's no problem there... and the people that is possesed, during this century... there's a lot of things happening there that cannot be just collective hysteria... don't you think...?
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Points: 32553 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 12:24
Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

I read your article and I don't feel my question answered... well, I don't know if you don't believe in Angels as well, but I don't see demons as gods, so, I don't see why I could discount them as gods... now, they didn't quote the demons that Jesus faced in shore of the lake and that they even go down to their knees, and even ask to leave the person and go to the pigs that were near there...
 
I feel like the explanation is good, but is not the answer I was searching for. I mean, angels did not exists then? I know, they are messengers, but according to the tradition, the Devil is an angel, not a god, so there's no problem there... and the people that is possesed, during this century... there's a lot of things happening there that cannot be just collective hysteria... don't you think...?


I don't reject the notion of angels at all.  I believe in angels.  The trouble is assuming "demons are the opposite of angels."  It's a common idea, but I believe it is mistaken.  Angels are a distinct class of being.

The Bible never states that the Devil (or Satan) is a fallen angel.  That is mere tradition and myth.

I don't believe in demon possession.  As I said, everything that happens has a physical explanation or cause.  Just because we do not know what that cause is does not mean there isn't one.

If you want to look at it another way, would it be "wrong" for a tribal group to say a disease is caused by demons?  After all, germs, bacteria, and viruses are all "invisible" living things that can cause illness.  Wink

Here is a shorter article that deals specifically with Legion.  However, it makes a few extra good points about demons as perceived in the wider Greek culture (and language) of the New Testament.
https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays
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Points: 6802 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 12 2010 at 12:32
Originally posted by Epignosis Epignosis wrote:

Originally posted by jampa17 jampa17 wrote:

I read your article and I don't feel my question answered... well, I don't know if you don't believe in Angels as well, but I don't see demons as gods, so, I don't see why I could discount them as gods... now, they didn't quote the demons that Jesus faced in shore of the lake and that they even go down to their knees, and even ask to leave the person and go to the pigs that were near there...
 
I feel like the explanation is good, but is not the answer I was searching for. I mean, angels did not exists then? I know, they are messengers, but according to the tradition, the Devil is an angel, not a god, so there's no problem there... and the people that is possesed, during this century... there's a lot of things happening there that cannot be just collective hysteria... don't you think...?


I don't reject the notion of angels at all.  I believe in angels.  The trouble is assuming "demons are the opposite of angels."  It's a common idea, but I believe it is mistaken.  Angels are a distinct class of being.

The Bible never states that the Devil (or Satan) is a fallen angel.  That is mere tradition and myth.

I don't believe in demon possession.  As I said, everything that happens has a physical explanation or cause.  Just because we do not know what that cause is does not mean there isn't one.

If you want to look at it another way, would it be "wrong" for a tribal group to say a disease is caused by demons?  After all, germs, bacteria, and viruses are all "invisible" living things that can cause illness.  Wink

Here is a shorter article that deals specifically with Legion.  However, it makes a few extra good points about demons as perceived in the wider Greek culture (and language) of the New Testament.
 
Ok... I will read that... but yeah... that's interesting... I know that Satan didn't appear as a fallen angel, I know is tradition... that's why I posted that way in the other thread... but I have still some doubts about it.... especially because even if it's an illness or not... people who is possesed well, don't know if I have to get into details but, there are too much inside information about demons that most people don't know but possesed people used it... don't know... I'm trying to have a clear concept of what to think about all of this but is difficult really...
 
Your concept about this invisible things is interesting as well... thanks rob... more comments after I finish this other article..
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