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Topic ClosedMartin Orford August 2009

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debrewguy View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2009 at 18:27
Martin has every right to bitch about what he thinks caused his financial state. He has every right to state that such and such actions should be taken.
But he is entitled to his own opinions,  and not to his own facts.
 Objective studies done by reputable disinterested parties can be twisted, as any statistic can . But when the only ones that come to an opposite conclusion are industry funded, do you start to wonder ?
 Ignoring reality and the new competitive landscape is his choice. It doesn't make it disappear.
 Dreaming of a golden age that may well have been golden for a few is not reason enough to force the rest back into a time capsule.
Deluding one's self that things have not changed is self defeating. Even when the change is a harsh reality.

But, on his side, he does at least have an easy  scapegoat for his rage. And sympathisers who also don't notice the blinders they wear.

It's not always what should be done. It's what can actually BE done.

This situation / problem has been here for ten years. If the steps taken to solve the problem so far have not made a difference,
do you ask yourself at what point you stop hammering your head against the wall and try to find a door or window to get to the other side ???




Edited by debrewguy - September 29 2009 at 18:29
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 29 2009 at 19:04
Originally posted by BigBoss BigBoss wrote:

sorry, I must have missed your question.  The problem with eMusic or any "all you can eat" type of service is you pay a low flat rate for virtually unlimited access and that gets split up with every artist you purchased from.  The first time I saw a digital says report with payments of even less than 1 penny, so of course it is rounded down and you get nothing, they seem to play a trick where they do the rounding on individual sales instead of all your sales, so say you had a cumulative $10 in profits, you'd get nothing because they were all a fraction of a cent.  Part of this applies to places like MySpace that monetize your songs that are playing by having ads on your page, but you have NO control over what they do.  I had them override my 2 minute song sample with the entire song, I can't change it and I don't want the entire song on there, my only option is to opt out entirely.

Services like my Mindawn pay a 75% royalty, this is to whoever put the material up, the artist or the label, obviously the more middlemen you have, the less you get.  Take iTunes as an example, you have an artist, the label, a propogator and then iTunes, everyone is getting their piece of it, so the artist doesn't see a whole lot, however there usually aren't expenses to recoup from it, so it's nearly free money.

Why do people end up on eMusic?  Because the sign up with a propagator and don't pay attention to the details.  I'm pretty certain those types of services will go away as more people notice.


Propagator? I thought they're called "aggregators." You're talking about CD Baby, The Orchard. etc. right?

Anyway, the middleman issue is a serious one. Let's look at InsideOut artists: there's the label, InsideOut, then there's InsideOut's parent, SPV. So far so good right? An organization as big as SPV couldn't possibly have another middleman could they? Oh wait! Yes, actually they are clients of an aggregator, The Orchard. So far I've counted 3 middlemen. Oh lord!

The further problem with eMusic is that there are many times that you'll get a "get 50 free tracks" offer. New customer? 50 free tracks the first month. Continue your subscription another 2 months then cancel. A year later, they'll try to entice you back with another 50 free tracks. This time, though, you'll pay for the first month right away. The 50 free tracks is in addition to the paid tracks. You cancel before the month is over. Another year passes by. Guess what happens next?
THE PROG REPORT
The Progressive Rock Fan's Guide To The iPod Revolution
www.theprogreport.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 02:20
Looks like Martin Orford's interview has a bit of a record here - the most posts in response (by far) than any other yet posted here (including those with Mickael Akerfeld or Steven Wilson).

He thought his views would be unpopular on an internet site, but far from that, they seem to have touched a nerve & sparked an excellent debate among members.

Great posts & intelligent argument guys - keep it up

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 08:06
Food for thought from bass player Steve Lawson.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 08:34
Originally posted by Teaflax Teaflax wrote:

Food for thought from bass player Steve Lawson.
 
As is his blog on Lily Allen. Shocked
 
Would Big Boss or someone be kind enough to give the view from the other side of the fence?
 
He certainly contradicts a lot that has been written in this thread.
 
Great thread! Captivating read. (the jury's out for me on the topic by the way Wink)
http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 09:04
Never heard of this guy before, so it's just a musician stating his opinion, some of his thoughts are interesting or valid, others are wispy.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 09:38
Info on Steve Lawson
Websites I work with:

http://www.progressor.net
http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
https://www.mixcloud.com/haukevind/
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 09:51
oh, I read up on him before I posted, doesn't change that I never heard of him and he was stating his opinion.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 10:59
I'd forgotten about the house concert "phenomenon".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_concert.
http://homeroutes.ca/ (canada)
http://houseconcerthub.ning.com/ (europe)
Nice to see that others (Steve Lawson) also know  that the last 40 years were a blip in music industry workings.
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 11:12
Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

When someone nicks your car, you can no longer use it, surely? This is quite a significant difference, at least, since downloading/uploading makes no direct difference to a label's ability to use their intellectual property... the one is crime against property, which deprives you of its use. The other, a crime against intellectual property, which leaves you basically unchanged except undemonstrably in your potential ability to sell albums. It's still wrong, but it's not theft in the sense in which theft is generally understood (or at least the sense suggested by those dreadful 'you wouldn't steal a handbag... movie piracy is stealing!' things at the start of DVDs).

Think im this,  the guy with your Mercedes Benz 2009 (largely over US$ 10,000.00 which is normally the limit for Grand Theft)  is captured, the car returned with no damage, probably even with more gas and polished  you suffer no difference in the ability to use it....Still the kid is captured and suffers a trial for Grand Theft being sent to prison for no less than 10 years.

Hey, you have suffered nothing...Your car is exactly or even better than when you lost it...The Judicial system doesn't judge a person for the effect of the robbery, but for the act of stealing

You are a musician, you work a year releasing an album, you struggle to feed your kids (unless you are part of a huge band or a well known artist), you release 20,000 copies, you sell 500 and an illegaluploader provides 10,000 copies to your target audience...Isn't this causing a damage to you?

You will say that the music is there to be sold...That's not accurate, there are 10,000 users who will probably never buy the album because  they have it already in a 325 kbps copy, with the covers perfectly scanned and on a Sony CD (US$ 1.00)............Why buy the milk if you have the cow for free? 

There's a damage and very strong, and think in something if you upload a terabyte, you are uploading 10,000 CD's, which is above the usual limit of Grand theft.

And even if the damage is only potential...The act of taking anything you don't own and giving it to third persons is theft, like it or not.

Iván


Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - September 30 2009 at 11:14
            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 12:30
There are two issues being criss-crossed here for the convenience of the download-is-ok viewpoint.  The first issue is artist adaptibility and that some bands are able to soldier on while Martin is not.  This is a fair point to raise and it's great news.  If some bands can adapt and continue, enjoy the indepence, and prosper in the paradigm that exists in 20 years, that's fantastic, and more power to them . 
 
But that is a completely separate issue from whether one entitles themselves to break existing laws, because they feel they should get to do as they please, and they have the capability.  Because the new breed of artist is able to "make it" doesn't strengthen the case of the thief one bit.  They have still broken the law and it is wrong any way you slice it. 
 
If you think the laws are a joke, and you wish to break them because it's easy to do, that's your decision.  But you can't cleanse the immorality of it by pointing to some musicians who are prospering.  They are reacting to a climate created by the thieves, not the other way around.  That they have been successful is great news but it changes nothing about the "right and wrong" of taking something without paying.  And there has been nothing posted so far that makes taking-without-permission into a clean act.  And there won't be. 
 
Last, I'm buying Martin's cd to thank him for having the courage to tell it like it is.  Hope it's good stuff, I've never heard his work.  Smile  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 12:43
Very well said.
Best Regards,
Shawn Gordon
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www.progrockrecords.com
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 12:53
May I add that following this debate I have registered with Mindawn, downloaded 2 albums and been enjoying them this afternoon.
 
I will be using it again for sure.
 
If only I had known earlier what a great price these albums were being offered for, the formats provided and how much the artists were receiving.Confused
 
Sometimes its great to talk! Clap
 
I am, however, concerned as to my future membership of emusic following Shawn's information.
 
Scott, do you intend to remain a member?
http://www.last.fm/user/colt2112

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 12:55
Although I can't seem to work out how to get Last.FM to scrobble them yet! LOL

Edited by progmetalhead - September 30 2009 at 12:55
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 12:56
Great to have you on board with Mindawn.  You can browse by category, so you can find lots of prog that way.  Let me know if you have any questions, but use the Mindawn system to submit it, I might not see it here.
Best Regards,
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 13:02
Originally posted by progmetalhead progmetalhead wrote:

May I add that following this debate I have registered with Mindawn, downloaded 2 albums and been enjoying them this afternoon.
 
I will be using it again for sure.
 
If only I had known earlier what a great price these albums were being offered for, the formats provided and how much the artists were receiving.Confused
 
Sometimes its great to talk! Clap
 
I am, however, concerned as to my future membership of emusic following Shawn's information.
 
Scott, do you intend to remain a member?
My membership is paid up through April, so I will remain a member until at least then.  I am going to have to seriously rethink about whether or not to re-up though.  I know that there is a lot of great stuff on Mindawn that I would love to get my ears on, and since I now know that they won't be coming available on eMusic a shift will probably be in order.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 13:07
^^ Thanks Thumbs Up
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 13:31
One good reason to hook up with Mindawn is that they have much/most of Musea's extensive catalogue available in digital format there.

Which, as far as I know, isn't available in digital format anywhere else.
Websites I work with:

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http://www.houseofprog.com

My profile on Mixcloud:
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 14:30
Originally posted by Ivan_Melgar_M Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Originally posted by TGM: Orb TGM: Orb wrote:

When someone nicks your car, you can no longer use it, surely? This is quite a significant difference, at least, since downloading/uploading makes no direct difference to a label's ability to use their intellectual property... the one is crime against property, which deprives you of its use. The other, a crime against intellectual property, which leaves you basically unchanged except undemonstrably in your potential ability to sell albums. It's still wrong, but it's not theft in the sense in which theft is generally understood (or at least the sense suggested by those dreadful 'you wouldn't steal a handbag... movie piracy is stealing!' things at the start of DVDs).

Think im this,  the guy with your Mercedes Benz 2009 (largely over US$ 10,000.00 which is normally the limit for Grand Theft)  is captured, the car returned with no damage, probably even with more gas and polished  you suffer no difference in the ability to use it....Still the kid is captured and suffers a trial for Grand Theft being sent to prison for no less than 10 years.

Hey, you have suffered nothing...Your car is exactly or even better than when you lost it...The Judicial system doesn't judge a person for the effect of the robbery, but for the act of stealing

You are a musician, you work a year releasing an album, you struggle to feed your kids (unless you are part of a huge band or a well known artist), you release 20,000 copies, you sell 500 and an illegaluploader provides 10,000 copies to your target audience...Isn't this causing a damage to you?

You will say that the music is there to be sold...That's not accurate, there are 10,000 users who will probably never buy the album because  they have it already in a 325 kbps copy, with the covers perfectly scanned and on a Sony CD (US$ 1.00)............Why buy the milk if you have the cow for free? 

There's a damage and very strong, and think in something if you upload a terabyte, you are uploading 10,000 CD's, which is above the usual limit of Grand theft.

And even if the damage is only potential...The act of taking anything you don't own and giving it to third persons is theft, like it or not.

Iván


Ultimately, the condition of the car isn't what is relevant... it's that you yourself were deprived of demonstrable property and its use for this period of time. With downloading/uploading, you are only deprived of a non-demonstrable amount of unprovable income from sales. (i.e. would anyone who downloads an album have bought it? probably not... would everyone who downloads an album not buy it (according to my experience, a number would). We can't really say that X downloads equates to Y lost sales in general, anyway, given that available studies suggest that downloading's impact in terms of sales is greatest on the biggest acts, and thus not consistent across the board.

I mean, essentially, the extent of the 'theft', if we treat it as theft, is completely indeterminable.

On the other hand:

Originally posted by wikipedia wikipedia wrote:

In English law, theft was codified into a statutory offence in the Theft Act 1968 which defines it as:
"A person is guilty of theft, if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it". (Section 1)
Australian law seems to have a similar requirement with regard to the mens rea... no idea how it works elsewhere, and I'm trusting wikipedia here.

Now, I'm not saying it's harmless, nor that it's OK, but theft seems an incorrect, or at least deceptive tag for it, and branding this as 'stealing', I imagine, simply encourages people to view 'the industry' as dishonest.

(and that's frankly the single most common excuse/reason I hear for downloading... I think depriving people of that sort of excuse is worthwhile)


Edited by TGM: Orb - September 30 2009 at 14:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 30 2009 at 16:10
TGM: Every country has a different law, the requirement of permanently depraving is not common to all.

But I'm sure Australia has a determined law, for example in Perú we have:

1.- Hurto (Theft): Over US$ 1,000 more or less
2.- Hurto Menor (Minor theft): Bellow US$ 1,000.00
3.- Apropiación Ilicita (Illegal Apropriation): If you don't pretend to keep the stolen item forever.

N° 1 and N° 3 carry imprisonment, N° 2 not until this month, because there's an epidemy of pety thefts that are harming people, but due to the amount, tthey don't go to jail, according to the new law, they will  go to a maximum of 12 years if re-incident or if they harm the assaulted.

But the three are THEFT, in different degrees, stealing the property of others (intellectual or physical) are theft in different degrees, and should carry different sanctions.

Iván


            
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