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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2009 at 04:10
http://www.geocities.com/altbinariessoundsmusicclassical/mp3test.html

I would call that a good audio system ... case in point.

Nobody's contesting the fact that during mp3 compression data is lost. What I am contesting is that this loss is audible even on high end systems, as long as high bitrates and modern encoders (like LAME) are used.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2009 at 12:34
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

http://www.geocities.com/altbinariessoundsmusicclassical/mp3test.html

I would call that a good audio system ... case in point.

Nobody's contesting the fact that during mp3 compression data is lost. What I am contesting is that this loss is audible even on high end systems, as long as high bitrates and modern encoders (like LAME) are used.
 
The thing I hear with MP3 as compared to red book CD or WAV (all things being equal) is a subtle increase in hardness, a slight drop in both macro and micro dynamics as well as a harsher treble. This becomes more apparent after longer listening sessions. I know there are people out there that say that all amplifiers sound the same and I can safely say that that is ridiculous. However, I do think that some people do have more sensitive hearing than others as well.
The famous pianist Glenn Gould could audibly detect changes in recorded tape speeds and equipment changes in the recording studio. He was very fussy about it and all the techs that worked with him can attest to the fact that he had such a good ear (this is very evident in how well his recordings sound, even the ones done in the 50's as he did all the mastering and mixing himself as well as pick the equipment he felt was best suited for the studio). I don't think it is exclusive to everyone though, as many people are tone deaf. Most people don't put much emphasis on sound quality, but those that do certainly do detect changes no matter how subtle. Often these changes are not detected immediatly but after longer listening sessions when the ear is more relaxed. I do not put a lot of stock in statistics either, as they can be very misleading as well. Statistics may be useful as far as marketing goes but not to my own personal views. The ear needs time and should be in a more relaxed zone to detect subtle changes.
It took me over ten years of equipment changes to get the system that I feel sounded the most organic to my ears. Now that I have it I have remained static in my system.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2009 at 16:38
^ so in essence you're saying that those subtle differences can only be heard after longer listening sessions? Call me naive, but in my book prolonged listening means fatigue, not relaxation. And independently of the source, too ... I know that some audiophiles will immediately say that listening to mp3 means fatigue and listening to vinyl means relaxation ... Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 08 2009 at 19:29
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ so in essence you're saying that those subtle differences can only be heard after longer listening sessions? Call me naive, but in my book prolonged listening means fatigue, not relaxation. And independently of the source, too ... I know that some audiophiles will immediately say that listening to mp3 means fatigue and listening to vinyl means relaxation ... Embarrassed
 
I don't watch TV and the music is on most of the time, and I have found that the system is very relaxing as it is now. I do not listen to MP3 as a rule except in my car. I do not listen to vinyl either anymore, and I will say this. The single biggest improvement that I ever made to my system was the addition of a Benchmark Media Systems DAC 1 with USB. Digital through this unit is the closest thing to an analog sound I have ever heard. The equipment has much to say as well as equipment synergy. In your particular case I can't speak for you. No system is perfect, but the system I am using now is the best I have ever had and I don't get listener fatigue unless I listen at very loud volume levels.
 
I did have a fair amount of music stored on hard drive in a compressed format for sake of saving memory but I did not like what I was hearing so I bought a bigger hard drive and went with a lossless storage format. It sounds much better now. In fact it sounds quite a bit better to my ears. That was through the same DAC as well in case you are wondering.
 
I will also add that I have quite a few SACD format discs as well and the dynamics and inner detail is better. It's a little easier to check this one because both formats are included on the same disc. I will also mention to that the staging is much better with the increased bit and sample rate.
 
I have a friend who tends to lean on your side of the fence and he will tell me that he can't hear any difference but in all honesty, he is the only one who holds that opinion that has heard my system. He just likes to be difficult, but everyone else just shakes their head. I have heard his system as well and it's not even close to what I am listening to, but then again, I did not get into this hobby for mediocraty. I just happen to love to listen to music.
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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2009 at 05:27
Eh, I tend to think listening fatigue comes from over compressed albums.
I don't get that problem much since I don't listen to stuff very loud, since anyway I'm a musician that doesn't want to bust his hearing.
But I do notice, certain albums in my collection, I cannot listen to them even moderately loudly (such as The Faceless album "Planetary Duality", Gojira's album "From Mars to Sirius" and a few others) for the entire duration of the album, otherwise I get a minor headache and I just feel like I've had a barrage of noise shot at me.
Planetary Duality in particular is bad, although it doesn't have much in the way of audible clipping, the master bus limiting is so ridiculous the sound constantly "pumps" which is very irritating to listen to.
Although I tend to master bus limit my music fairly loud, it's nowhere near clipping/audible pumping levels and I like it that way, even if it means I'm not in the race of the loudness wars.

Anyway, MP3 vs loseless continued, I tend to rip my stuff at 256Kbps these days. Sounds good to me, eh.
I don't have a massive hard drive (300 GB) plus I need to keep it very freed up to maintain system stability and performance for doing audio stuff (recording, mixing etc) and since I don't hear a difference at 256Kbps, it suits me fine and doesn't overload my hard drive. And believe me, I've been spending hours mixing stuff, constantly doing tiny refinement to my guitar tone/bass guitar tone most people wouldn't even be able to hear, so it's not like I don't have an ear for detail.

Some people own 50 000 USD sound systems. That's awesome and I'm jealous of them, but thinking rationally I see no point in owning one for myself because the music I listen to just doesn't take advantage of it.
If you listen to heaps of jazz, fantastic, because those ultra high end systems really work with that kind of music, the soundstaging, the perception of depth (being able to hear where instruments are in a room, in a sense)/ how tall/wide it is/sounds.
Honestly jazz and other music that has lots of 'space' in it makes up a small portion of my listening. I'm mainly a rock music guy and a big heavy metal fan as some would know by now.
So the benefits of such expensive audio systems is entirely lost, because there is just too much going on in the music I generally listen to. Everything is just competing for it's own space in the sonic spectrum, no matter how well mixed it is, it's just a fact when you have stuff like that going on you just can't give it heaps of depth.
Quad tracked electric guitars, bass guitar parts that are essential for keeping all the low end down, there just isn't any space in the mix to have any proper perception of depth and space that you'd hear in jazz or something like that.
I've spoke to some guys on other forums about this, and this was their complaint basically, that as I said, the benefits were just lost on music that revolves around high gain double/quad tracked guitars and they felt deeply disappointed by that.
So really, I think at most I'll end up with a 5000 AUD system when I move out of home and I'll be fine with that.
It'll be good enough to take advantage of the music I like that has amazing production (like This Godless Endeavor by Nevermore, End of Heartache by Killswitch Engage and not have to think "Well at least I  didn't spend 50 grand, I don't have enough jazz" lol.
Chances are I'd be spending even more on my studio monitors by that stage anyway.


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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 09 2009 at 13:13
^ I listened to Planetary Duality just earlier today via mobile player / headphones. It was loud, but it didn't strike me as overly compressed ... at least not compared to Death Magnetic.Wink Do you know Obscura - Cosmogenesis? Most of these albums are equally loud (at least according to the Album Gain value computed by Winamp), but of course there are different approaches to achieving the loudness.

I agree that the production/mastering is the decisive factor for whether listening has a fatiguing effect ... I can listen to good albums for hours on my 80 EUR Logitech speakers without getting fatigued, as long as I don't crank up the volume too much.

BTW: Let me emphasize again that I don't think that these speakers sound as good as a really good (and big) hifi system. I'm just saying that they sound great for their price ... and they are good enough to reveal many of the details that you normally wouldn't hear on low-budget systems. If I had 5000 EUR in my hands right now, I probably would buy a big 5.1 system with a decent amp and really good speakers. But then my neighbors would probably kick me out of the building when I put on something like Between the Buried and Me ...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2009 at 01:01
^It's definitely not as compressed as Death Magnetic, otherwise it would probably be clipping, but I can't hear any clipping going on in Planetary Duality, but it's quite compressed enough that there is an audible pumping effect, which is quite unfortunate. Death Magnetic, even if I liked the music, which I don't (well, I don't hate it, just don't particularly love it either), the sheer amount of compression on the master bus alone would be reason for me not to listen to it.
Indeed, I know Obscura's Cosmogenesis, great album, but again mastered a bit too loud for my tastes. When it comes to the kind of loudness I prefer, think the debut Rage Against the Machine album. Great level of dynamics and still fairly loud without being over the top.
Personally I think you'd be better off with a stereo system for that price too, since after all less components and more money going into each individual component means those 2 speakers will sound better than a 5.1 system, although I realize you probably wont go out and get a new system to listen on. I just tend to be very comfortable listening on stereo, but that's just me I suppose.


Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - September 11 2009 at 01:05
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 11 2009 at 01:11
^ I would get a 5.1 system primarily because I also watch DVDs/Blu-Rays a lot, and I wouldn't want to use two separate systems. I agree that for music a stereo system is quite adequate, and even if I enjoy many 5.1 mixes (Opeth, Porcupine Tree, Symphony X) I don't think that 5.1 is the "next big step" for music production.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 01:06

 

Hi

I have been building my setup (system) for a long time let say 15 years and I thought that

Progressive /heavy metal will always improve on my upgrades.

I know now that I was wrong

More money and effort I have spent towards my system degrade the overall sound of   Progressive /heavy metal sound.

However I do have a lot of Jazz/blues and Classical discs and I have to say the sound always improved on every upgrade.

So I would not recommend spending a lot of money on stereo if you only listen Progressive Hard/rock/metal disc.

Cheers Jiri

 www.jirihifi.com.

 

PS: Some bands like

Porcupine Tree, older recording of Ayreon, older recording of Enchant sounds

OK



Edited by jch - September 12 2009 at 01:10
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 04:47
How much money have you been spending in those 15 years? I hope it was worth it ... Embarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 05:10

Hi Mr ProgFreak

I don’t exactly how much .I have spend a lot > I have started to change amplifiers ,then preamplifiers, then speakers, then speakers cables, then power cables and so on and on….

 

I hope it was worth it

 

Not yet the journey is still going on I have to say for a jazz /blues my system is absolute (at least to my ears) but still have to find compromise for a progressive/heavy metal.

Thinking of different approach multiple tweeters and bass (in one) system switch able for different style of music.

Take care jiri  



Edited by jch - September 12 2009 at 05:13
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 07:25
^ I hope you'll find what you're looking for. As far as I'm concerned, my 80 EUR Logitech speakers give me a lot of joy ... maybe I'll upgrade to the more expensive digital version later this year, but I can't envision myself spending more than 1000 EUR on audio equipment. I know what big systems sound like, I've had one about 15 years ago and we even had a home recording studio in the basement, with expensive monitors and a 24/8/2 mixing console for about 4000 EUR. So I know what I'm missing, and my opinion is that it's not worth the effort ... IMO it actually distracts you from the music. There's a reason why it is called "audiophile" and not "musicophile" ... obviously I'm the latter. Smile

BTW: This is what I currently use to listen to music:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/211&cl=au,en

And this is what I might upgrade to:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224&cl=au,en

Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 16:20

Hi Mr ProgFreak

Thanks a lot hopefully I will get there. I had a look at your Logitech set. I will go and have a listen the Z5500 Digital for my self for (computer room) It looks nice and compact.

Anyway good luck with Z 5500 upgrade.

Jiri 

 
Hi Petrovsk

I couldn’t agreed more with your previous post

 

Chances are I'd be spending even more on my studio monitors by that stage anyway.

 

Just wondering if you have any particular (brand, model) monitors in mind?

I have recently auditioned ATC SCM 150ASL Active speakers and they are good I mean really good

Nevertheless price is too high unless bought 2 hand from Audiogone or so

http://www.atc.gb.net/scm150aslpro.htm

 

Take care

Jiri

www.jirihifi.com

 

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 16:43
I've read good things about the new entry level Genelec monitors:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/genelec_6010a_anthrazit.htm

Smile

P.S.: They're meant to be used with a separate subwoofer:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/genelec_5040_apm.htm




Edited by Mr ProgFreak - September 12 2009 at 16:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 16:54

Hi Guys

Just sending a funny video link for true audiophile’s addiction.

Shocked
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2009 at 17:02
^ very entertaining ... as a scientist I can't help it, I find most of the esoteric equipment ridiculous. "Clean electricity" ... that does not affect the sound in any way. Computers have very strict requirements about voltage, but still a 30 EUR power supply can easily provide that, independently of any typical fluctuation in the power grid.
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Petrovsk Mizinski View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 13 2009 at 23:26
Originally posted by jch jch wrote:

 

Hi

I have been building my setup (system) for a long time let say 15 years and I thought that

Progressive /heavy metal will always improve on my upgrades.

I know now that I was wrong

More money and effort I have spent towards my system degrade the overall sound of   Progressive /heavy metal sound.

However I do have a lot of Jazz/blues and Classical discs and I have to say the sound always improved on every upgrade.

So I would not recommend spending a lot of money on stereo if you only listen Progressive Hard/rock/metal disc.

Cheers Jiri

 www.jirihifi.com.

 

PS: Some bands like

Porcupine Tree, older recording of Ayreon, older recording of Enchant sounds

OK



That's a really awesome set up man, wow!

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I hope you'll find what you're looking for. As far as I'm concerned, my 80 EUR Logitech speakers give me a lot of joy ... maybe I'll upgrade to the more expensive digital version later this year, but I can't envision myself spending more than 1000 EUR on audio equipment. I know what big systems sound like, I've had one about 15 years ago and we even had a home recording studio in the basement, with expensive monitors and a 24/8/2 mixing console for about 4000 EUR. So I know what I'm missing, and my opinion is that it's not worth the effort ... IMO it actually distracts you from the music. There's a reason why it is called "audiophile" and not "musicophile" ... obviously I'm the latter. Smile

BTW: This is what I currently use to listen to music:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/211&cl=au,en

And this is what I might upgrade to:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224&cl=au,en

Smile


Distracts you from the music.........interesting. I don't feel distracted from them music when I listen through my active monitors, simply because if I'm in the mindset where I'm just there for listening and not concentrating on production aspects, it's ok.
Personally I couldn't live without a set of studio monitors now.  I still haven't decided whether I'll pursue professional audio engineering yet and even if I don't, I still want to hone my skills to at least a semi professional level for my own personal home music projects and of course that would mean computer speakers would simply not be good enough, especially since I'd like to at least post my music on forums and show them to friends and such.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2009 at 00:03
Originally posted by jch jch wrote:

Hi Mr ProgFreak

Thanks a lot hopefully I will get there. I had a look at your Logitech set. I will go and have a listen the Z5500 Digital for my self for (computer room) It looks nice and compact.

Anyway good luck with Z 5500 upgrade.

Jiri 

 
Hi Petrovsk

I couldn’t agreed more with your previous post

 

Chances are I'd be spending even more on my studio monitors by that stage anyway.

 

Just wondering if you have any particular (brand, model) monitors in mind?

I have recently auditioned ATC SCM 150ASL Active speakers and they are good I mean really good

Nevertheless price is too high unless bought 2 hand from Audiogone or so

http://www.atc.gb.net/scm150aslpro.htm

 

Take care

Jiri

www.jirihifi.com

 

 



The ones you seem to be looking at look more mid field monitors, which isn't what I want at this stage.
Bear in mind I'm 20 years old and don't make much money at this stage, so I don't have the kind of physical household space for those type of monitors.
Currently I'm just using a set of Genelec copies but I hope to upgrade them.

http://www.event1.com/

These are my absolute dream near fields. I know someone (he's a pro audio engineer that bought a set of the Opal's very recently for about 4999 AUD and he said.
They compared well to American made imported monitors costing over twice the price and now he feels he wont need new monitors for a very long time. He said from there, now he had to upgrade the room treatment and most importantly, his ears so to speak, in order to take full advantage of the sheer detail they provided.
Yes, 4999 AUD isn't cheap, but if they do compare to monitors that are 10 000 AUD+, then I certainly wouldn't mind a set.

Thinking more realistically, I'm looking at these monitors:

http://www.krksys.com/product_vxt.php
Those replaced the V Series 2 monitors fairly recently (2 years ago IIRC) and they look like strong contenders in their price range. They cost around 3000 AUD, although I imagine I could pick them up for about 2000 AUD if I shop around and look for sales.
They are in about the same price range as the Mackie HR824MKII and some of the Alesis monitors.
They aren't top shelf, but considering I don't have a pro environment (good room treatment etc) the Opals would be wasted on me anyway.

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ very entertaining ... as a scientist I can't help it, I find most of the esoteric equipment ridiculous. "Clean electricity" ... that does not affect the sound in any way. Computers have very strict requirements about voltage, but still a 30 EUR power supply can easily provide that, independently of any typical fluctuation in the power grid.


It's not ridiculous at all. Well okay, the extent to which this guy does it is, but on the other side the coin I would not be protecting my hypothetical super high end system with "FROM YER AVERAGE ELECTRICAL STORE" type power adapter/supply unless I knew my wiring was absolutely perfect.
I live in a relatively modern house and my father is a qualified electrician and did the wiring himself, so I'm lucky, but others might not be as lucky.
Otherwise that's why proper power conditioners exist, because in the real world conditions are not perfect.
I may live in one of the most developed and one of the richest (GDP per capita) in the world, but I'm not gonna fool myself into thinking every music venue around here is going to have exceptionally good wiring.
Be it in Canada, the US, wherever, the horror stories of musicians have their gear destroyed, DJs having their equipment damaged etc by bad power does happen


Edited by Petrovsk Mizinski - September 14 2009 at 00:19
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Mr ProgFreak View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2009 at 03:49
Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:


Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I hope you'll find what you're looking for. As far as I'm concerned, my 80 EUR Logitech speakers give me a lot of joy ... maybe I'll upgrade to the more expensive digital version later this year, but I can't envision myself spending more than 1000 EUR on audio equipment. I know what big systems sound like, I've had one about 15 years ago and we even had a home recording studio in the basement, with expensive monitors and a 24/8/2 mixing console for about 4000 EUR. So I know what I'm missing, and my opinion is that it's not worth the effort ... IMO it actually distracts you from the music. There's a reason why it is called "audiophile" and not "musicophile" ... obviously I'm the latter. Smile

BTW: This is what I currently use to listen to music:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/211&cl=au,en

And this is what I might upgrade to:
http://www.logitech.com/index.cfm/speakers_audio/home_pc_speakers/devices/224&cl=au,en

Smile


Distracts you from the music.........interesting. I don't feel distracted from them music when I listen through my active monitors, simply because if I'm in the mindset where I'm just there for listening and not concentrating on production aspects, it's ok.
Personally I couldn't live without a set of studio monitors now.  I still haven't decided whether I'll pursue professional audio engineering yet and even if I don't, I still want to hone my skills to at least a semi professional level for my own personal home music projects and of course that would mean computer speakers would simply not be good enough, especially since I'd like to at least post my music on forums and show them to friends and such.



I'm just saying that looking for the perfect system can become an obsession ... like that one guy in the video who had already spent 10000+ EUR but still wasn't happy with it, and said that it was an ongoing journey. Nothing wrong with that - as long as it makes you happy. Others collect stamps or build miniature railways. Still, I maintain that with most audiophiles I argued with over the years it seemed to me that they had become more interested in audio equipment than the actual music.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2009 at 03:51
Originally posted by Petrovsk Mizinski Petrovsk Mizinski wrote:


Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ very entertaining ... as a scientist I can't help it, I find most of the esoteric equipment ridiculous. "Clean electricity" ... that does not affect the sound in any way. Computers have very strict requirements about voltage, but still a 30 EUR power supply can easily provide that, independently of any typical fluctuation in the power grid.


It's not ridiculous at all. Well okay, the extent to which this guy does it is, but on the other side the coin I would not be protecting my hypothetical super high end system with "FROM YER AVERAGE ELECTRICAL STORE" type power adapter/supply unless I knew my wiring was absolutely perfect.
I live in a relatively modern house and my father is a qualified electrician and did the wiring himself, so I'm lucky, but others might not be as lucky.
Otherwise that's why proper power conditioners exist, because in the real world conditions are not perfect.
I may live in one of the most developed and one of the richest (GDP per capita) in the world, but I'm not gonna fool myself into thinking every music venue around here is going to have exceptionally good wiring.
Be it in Canada, the US, wherever, the horror stories of musicians have their gear destroyed, DJs having their equipment damaged etc by bad power does happen


Every power supply contains a "power conditioner" ... what I don't understand is why you would want to use separate power conditioners. Ok, if you worry about surges then you can get an USV or something like that ... but power filters specifically designed to improve audio quality? Sorry ... that complete nonsense. Ask you father if you don't believe me!
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