The Christian Thread

Deathrabbit wrote: I dunno, I'm not the hugest fan of Occam's razor, but it seems that any explanation that gets too convoluted has more of a chance of being wrong. I think many truths are much simpler than people want them to be.

Deathrabbit wrote: Well, interestingly enough, in the OT God behaves in a more polytheistic manner; many times he is recorded as changing his mind, which would imply that he was wrong to begin with, or didn't have all the info. The omniscient view came in to focus in the NT.

Not true at all: 

“God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speak and then not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?” (Numbers 23:19)

And:

I make known the end from the beginning,
       from ancient times, what is still to come.
       I say: My purpose will stand,
       and I will do all that I please.

 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
       from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
       What I have said, that will I bring about;
       what I have planned, that will I do. (Isaiah 46:10-11)

God grieves, and he will turn away His wrath if people repent (that's to our benefit, so I'm not complaining), but He never goes back on a promise.

Well, that flies in the face of what actually happens in the stories. Then again, I've always viewed the OT accountings of things to be more instructive like parables, rather than faithful depictions of what actually happens. But he does change his mind in several instances.  Google it if you don't believe me. Of course, could just be a bad translation issue too.

Well at the very least it couldn't have been the whole story, b/c then the earth is only 6000 years old and well, ummmm, no.

Deathrabbit wrote: Well, that flies in the face of what actually happens in the stories. Then again, I've always viewed the OT accountings of things to be more instructive like parables, rather than faithful depictions of what actually happens. But he does change his mind in several instances.  Google it if you don't believe me. Of course, could just be a bad translation issue too.

No need to Google it.  I know the Bible better than any other piece of literature (I read it daily).  I think it stands to reason that if God is an infinite being, He would be beyond the feeble attempts of human language to describe Him and His actions in full.  Most biblical scholars accept the idea of "anthropomorphic language" in describing God and His actions.

Deathrabbit wrote: You sir are much better than a lot of other ppl. Most Christians around where I live will argue with you to the death over the accuracy of every single article adjective in the Bible.

Well, I would too.

The problem is twofold:

1) Understanding the limitations of human language (and understanding the nuances of a foreign language) and

2) Understanding the cultural context of the Bible

There's a third issue also, and that is this:

3) Every time I have questioned something in the Bible, be it an apparent contradiction, a moral problem (like the Bible condoning something evil), or some such obstacle, careful study has ALWAYS led me away with an understanding of it (generally based on one of those two principles listed above), and I realize that such passages are not "Bible difficulties" at all, but make sense. 

Does that mean I still don't have questions about passages in the Bible?  Of course not.

But it has increased my faith to the point that whenever I come across a hard Bible difficulty or something that doesn't make sense, I give God the benefit of the doubt and pray that He will give me wisdom.  And even still, I conclude that I'm not smart enough to know everything in there!

StyLaZyn wrote: Epignosis wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: Epignosis wrote: StyLaZyn wrote: Epignosis wrote:   True. False. Explain the false. And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35) If God wanted my family dead for His purpose, nothing in my feeble power could stop that from happening. But that doesn't mean my love for my family won't keep me from trying. And in the process, going against God's will. No. As the husband and father, I am responsible for protecting them.  I cannot "go against" God's will unless He has specifically instructed me to do something.  Otherwise, I am to do what I am expect to do in my role. So now God can talk to you?

Um...I don't think too many Christians deny that.  But don't confuse the application of God's word and the prompting of the Holy Spirit with "Well, I heard God speaking to me the other day, and He wants me to..."

Deathrabbit wrote: So question for you Epi? DO you believe that the things that are good are only so b/c God does them, or b/c of some intrinsic value? IE: Would rape be good if God suddenly said it was?

That's an excellent question, with a simple answer (I don't fear rhetorical reprecussions, you know! ).

The Bible is clear that nothing is good unless God declares it to be good. If God (the creator of morality) said "rape is now good," who am I to argue with Him?  Fortunately, I have full confidence that God will not say such a thing, because the Bible also says He abhors rape and that He does not change.

Deathrabbit wrote: Ever read Euthyphro by Plato? It's a pretty fun philosophical jaunt based on this question.

I have not, actually. I've read little of Plato to be honest.  Do you recommend it?

One of my favorite ancient authors to read was Seneca, the Roman statesman (just FULL of insight on what made the ancient world tick).

StyLaZyn wrote: Epignosis wrote: Deathrabbit wrote: So question for you Epi? DO you believe that the things that are good are only so b/c God does them, or b/c of some intrinsic value? IE: Would rape be good if God suddenly said it was? That's an excellent question, with a simple answer (I don't fear rhetorical reprecussions, you know! ). The Bible is clear that nothing is good unless God declares it to be good. If God (the creator of morality) said "rape is now good," who am I to argue with Him?  Fortunately, I have full confidence that God will not say such a thing, because the Bible also says He abhors rape and that He does not change. But he doesn't abhor murder/killing?

Yes.
No.

Even human court systems recognize a fundamental difference between killing and murdering (Soldiers fighting in a war are not charged with murder when they kill an enemy).