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Diaby 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 15 2007
Location: Hungary
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 Posted: May 09 2009 at 07:56 |
 lucas wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
| I was joking when I wrote that the next band to consider for addition in PA will be Police. I simply recalled that the only connection they have with prog is to find in the previous bands of its members. Same with Dire Straits. |
Well, not exactly (sorry for responding so aggressively to that post, btw, I was a bit out of order). Love Over Gold is more than connected with prog. I've never seen anyone say Telegraph Road isn't prog, and I think that quite a number of folks agree that the album is, essentially, a progressive rock album. It's not just a tenuous connection.
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You are right that LoG is a prog album, and maybe PA should follow a pattern similar to other prog sites (Babyblaue, Ground and sky which has Joni Mitchell's 'Hissing of Summer lawns' in its database, Sea of Tranquility...), I mean include only the albums that are prog-related for artists that are otherwise non-prog.
See the discussions we had about Gorgut's 'Obscura' album :
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What is with José Cid? He has only one album and an EP on PA, but he has released several other things as well.
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yeah
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StyLaZyn
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Joined: November 22 2005
Location: United States
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Points: 4079
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 08:35 |
debrewguy wrote:
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Or you could just wait and whine about the next band that doesn't make it in, or does , despite your all knowing knowledge of what is truly prog.
Work at it, boy, work at it.
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OK Brewie Personally, I feel there is a strong aspect of opinion involved with certain decisions. Listening to Prog since the late 70's certainly does not qualify me as a Prog expert. And I certainly have not heard all Prog by all Prog bands. But likewise, this site has made me recognize that sometimes even the wisest most knowledgable fail to exhibit, IMO, consistent decision making. But they are human, like me.
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jammun
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 14 2007
Location: United States
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Points: 3449
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 08:47 |
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How about this: if Yes and Genesis had never made their '70s albums, and were being judged solely on the basis of their albums during 1979-1985, would they be worthy of inclusion?
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Can you tell me where we're headin'?
Lincoln County Road or Armageddon.
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lucas
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 08:48 |
Diaby wrote:
lucas wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
| I was joking when I wrote that the next band to consider for addition in PA will be Police. I simply recalled that the only connection they have with prog is to find in the previous bands of its members. Same with Dire Straits. |
Well, not exactly (sorry for responding so aggressively to that post, btw, I was a bit out of order). Love Over Gold is more than connected with prog. I've never seen anyone say Telegraph Road isn't prog, and I think that quite a number of folks agree that the album is, essentially, a progressive rock album. It's not just a tenuous connection.
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You are right that LoG is a prog album, and maybe PA should follow a pattern similar to other prog sites (Babyblaue, Ground and sky which has Joni Mitchell's 'Hissing of Summer lawns' in its database, Sea of Tranquility...), I mean include only the albums that are prog-related for artists that are otherwise non-prog.
See the discussions we had about Gorgut's 'Obscura' album :
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What is with José Cid? He has only one album and an EP on PA, but he has released several other things as well. |
Idon't know, maybe the person who included him was wise enough to see the difference between his early prog work and his later non-prog efforts...Anyway, I am pretty sure that 99 % of the artists/bands in PA database have their full discography available.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 09:53 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Tony R wrote:
This is really getting childish now.
Dire Straits?
What next, Bruce Springsteen. Knopfler's nearer to Bruce Springsteen than he is Prog.
Jester indeed.
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Have to agree 100% with you Tony.
Dire Straits has a lot of POP, Blues Based Rock, some country like music and a lot of mainstream, I have all their albums, becaue I love the band, but that means nothing, the argument:
"In my iTunes playlist of "Favorite Progressive Rock" (a playlist of studio recordings, which admittedly includes a lot of Prog-Related stuff), out of 639 songs (and growing), 14 are Dire Straits songs. From a band that only made 6 studio albums and a guy who listens to lots of Progressive Rock, that's saying something."
Is simply empty, i listen mostly prog, but i have a lot of Fleetwood mac (Not even Peter Green, talking about Stevie Nicks & Lindsay Buckingham, more than two albums), Meatloaf (two albums), and even a track of Madonna...This doesn't mean anything, only that I like other genres.
Now Cacho, if it's true that to add a band, the band doesn't need to have connection with Prog, we better change the name of he site to Whateverthememberswant.com because this would cease to be a Prog site.
Iván |
Ivan, you're really intentionally misrepresenting/quoting out of context what Pablo was saying there.
Cacho wrote:
^to add a band, the band doesn't need to have connection with Prog, which apparently you don't know by the examples you're giving and gave....
To add band, supposedly, you just need 1 prog album, which in many people's opinion, Love Over Gold is a full blown Progressive Rock record, while like Rob said very well, maybe not in the heights of King Crimson, nor Yes, etc, but it's Prog nonetheless. |
What he was trying to say, quite clearly, is that a vague/solid 'connection' or 'relation' with prog music (as exhibited by David Bowie or David Gilmour) is not necessary if you've released one prog album. |
Not misrepresenting anything TGM,
- A band to be added to Prog Related needs one of three characteristics, so analyzed all
- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, Not at all IMO
- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, In no way is recognized as influential for Prog
- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog. I explain my reasons why I don't beluiieve it's the case, but you haven't talked about them, I see Blues based Rock, Country Folk like and a lot of mainstream
Only in that case, the importance of a key musician has been accepted as anpossible cauise, but neither is the case....In no way Dire Straits has any reason to be added to Prog Rerlated.
Love Over Gold, if it had been the last thing the band had released, would be considered something of a lost prog gem, and the band would probably be kicking around in crossover or PR or neo-prog or something like that.
I don't believe so, find absolutely not more connection than any band of the era that diidn't played Prog, as a fact I'm against boston, but I see more a case in them than in Dire Straits, despite I like DS much more than Boston.
Taste or Ipod selections have nothing to do with an addition.
Iván
PS: This post also replies:
Diaby wrote:
I think Cacho means, that the band doesn't need to have such a connection with prog, that one of their members have ever played in a prog band/with a prog musician. After reading the things above his post, that's my interpretation. |
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 09 2009 at 10:00
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 09:56 |
jammun wrote:
How about this: if Yes and Genesis had never made their '70s albums, and were being judged solely on the basis of their albums during 1979-1985, would they be worthy of inclusion? |
If my aunt had wheels she would be a charriot. 
It's an itelligent movement trying toe ask as a questionn ¿How could Genesis and Yes could not had been added?", So the fans say "no way, they will always hadt
to be here.
They made then 70's music, and that's the reason why they are here, their 80's music is an extension of their career, but what counts are their 7 or 8 Prog releases each one and some related..
But even if that was the case, maybe Yes in PR, I see no way for Genesis, and as a fact I doubt anybody would had cared to suggest any of the bands without their 70's material.
And of course Collins Genesis would never had been added without at least ATOTT and W&W, somethingh that would never happened if they had started in the late 70's without the Gabriel Genesis precedent, being that they played that music as a transition to Pop, as a fact part of ATOTT (The title song and some say Mad Man Moon) is old Gabriel material that didn't made it to previous albums.
Iván
Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 09 2009 at 10:10
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
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Points: 8052
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 16:22 |
lucas wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
| I was joking when I wrote that the next band to consider for addition in PA will be Police. I simply recalled that the only connection they have with prog is to find in the previous bands of its members. Same with Dire Straits. |
Well, not exactly (sorry for responding so aggressively to that post, btw, I was a bit out of order). Love Over Gold is more than connected with prog. I've never seen anyone say Telegraph Road isn't prog, and I think that quite a number of folks agree that the album is, essentially, a progressive rock album. It's not just a tenuous connection.
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You are right that LoG is a prog album, and maybe PA should follow a pattern similar to other prog sites (Babyblaue, Ground and sky which has Joni Mitchell's 'Hissing of Summer lawns' in its database, Sea of Tranquility...), I mean include only the albums that are prog-related for artists that are otherwise non-prog.
See the discussions we had about Gorgut's 'Obscura' album :
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Fair enough. Have to admit I agree that the site's 'all albums of every artist are allowed' policy isn't always perfect (though preferable to the alternative, in my opinion). On the other hand, it's frustrating that this policy is preventing a prog album being on the site more. Personally, I think the site loses more credibility and usefulness as a prog rock resource by not including Love Over Gold than it would by having two or three more harmless non-progressive albums kicking around in PR.
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 16:27 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
Now Cacho, if it's true that to add a band, the band doesn't need to have connection with Prog, we better change the name of he site to Whateverthememberswant.com because this would cease to be a Prog site.
Iván |
Ivan, you're really intentionally misrepresenting/quoting out of context what Pablo was saying there.
Cacho wrote:
^to add a band, the band doesn't need to have connection with Prog, which apparently you don't know by the examples you're giving and gave....
To add band, supposedly, you just need 1 prog album, which in many people's opinion, Love Over Gold is a full blown Progressive Rock record, while like Rob said very well, maybe not in the heights of King Crimson, nor Yes, etc, but it's Prog nonetheless. |
What he was trying to say, quite clearly, is that a vague/solid 'connection' or 'relation' with prog music (as exhibited by David Bowie or David Gilmour) is not necessary if you've released one prog album. |
Not misrepresenting anything TGM,
- A band to be added to Prog Related needs one of three characteristics, so analyzed all
- Without being 100% Prog, received clear MUSICAL influence of this genre, Not at all IMO
- Are widely accepted as MUSICALLY influential to the development of Progressive Rock by the community, In no way is recognized as influential for Prog
- Blend characteristics of Progressive Rock with mainstream elements creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog. I explain my reasons why I don't beluiieve it's the case, but you haven't talked about them, I see Blues based Rock, Country Folk like and a lot of mainstream
Only in that case, the importance of a key musician has been accepted as anpossible cauise, but neither is the case....In no way Dire Straits has any reason to be added to Prog Rerlated.
Love Over Gold, if it had been the last thing the band had released, would be considered something of a lost prog gem, and the band would probably be kicking around in crossover or PR or neo-prog or something like that.
I don't believe so, find absolutely not more connection than any band of the era that diidn't played Prog
Taste or Ipod selections have nothing to do with an addition.
Iván [/QUOTE] Yes, taste and I-pod selections have nothing to do with an addition. I think the OP was using them as a starting point for discussion rather than his main case, and, at least, indicating that he thought those songs were progressive. About misrepresenting: you took 'to add a band, the band doesn't need to have connection with Prog' completely out of the context of the sentence it was in. What Pablo clearly wasn't trying to say was that a band doesn't need to be related to prog to be added, but that if it has released a prog album, the band as a whole doesn't need to be 'related', by personnel or influence, to prog. That seems to be site policy, from what I've heard over various threads, though I haven't been able to pinpoint where it's from. Now, about the three routes of PR addition: - Clearly musically influenced by progressive rock. A fifteen minute song with elaborate structure, loads of keyboards, a mix of improvised and pre-conceived music, a concept underlying it, etc. I think that shares so many features with progressive rock that you can at least say it's acting along the same lines, even if it's not obviously directly influenced by any particular progressive artist.
- Influence on the development of progressive rock. None whatsoever, I agree.
- Characteristics of progressive rock blended with the mainstream. Well, there are a few of them scattered throughout their albums, but, overwhelmingly, Love Over Gold remains the focus of my argument. That album has clearly got five out of the six characteristics which are cited as having 'defined all progressive rock' (see my post in the previous page) in the Symphonic Definition. It could have the sixth, I don't know. For that album, they should therefore be here.
allmusic wrote:
Adding a new rhythm guitarist, Dire Straits expands its sounds and ambitions on the sprawling Love Over Gold. In a sense, the album is their prog rock effort |
I see the blues, country, folk, rock and pop, too. I also see a big album of overbearing progressive rock in the middle of it. I've seen a lot of others agreeing that that album is at least in part progressive rock, and more than a few agreeing that it is entirely progressive rock. The fact that the band is bringing together so many elements into long songs would sort of indicate a progressive intent to me. If you've heard Love Over Gold, and you don't see any connection to prog in it stylistically, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. On the other hand, it does fit at least five of the six criteria stated by the site for a symphonic prog album. It's not Close To The Edge, but it's not all that far removed from Script For A Jester's Tear. Site policy is, as far as I'm aware, one prog album = grounds for inclusion. Yeah, I admit it's not perfect when an artist has clearly released an overwhelming majority of non-prog material, but it's the system we've got, so it should be applied evenly.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
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Points: 15745
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 16:38 |
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^thanks for clearing things up Rob, you couldn't have said it better.
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JediJoker7169
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 05 2009
Location: West Coast, NA
Status: Offline
Points: 195
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 17:42 |
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Good to see some intelligent arguments this time around. I believe I and others have made my point.
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Icarium
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VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
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Points: 34055
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 18:25 |
i think Chicago have more progrock material from 1968 -1978 then the entire Dire Straits Discographie, but Love over Goold is Sure Progressive rock album, both the Police and Dire Straits made albums that were quite sofisticated in an age were New Wave, Punk/Alternative rock and Glam/Hair metal was the moust popular music at that time. but together with Dire Straits and the Police you can also add Joe Jackson, Elvis Costello and Nik Kershaw all made songs that was a protest against Punk with more sofisticated arangment, with inlcusion of different styles as Reagge, Ska, World Music, Pop, Funk and Blues/rock. Including Prince... 
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lucas
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 18:51 |
aginor wrote:
i think Chicago have more progrock material from 1968 -1978 then the entire Dire Straits Discographie, but Love over Goold is Sure Progressive rock album, both the Police and Dire Straits made albums that were quite sofisticated in an age were New Wave, Punk/Alternative rock and Glam/Hair metal was the moust popular music at that time. |
Did anyone notice the big influence Police had on the evolution of Rush's music in the eighties ? (the "ska" thing)
aginor wrote:
but together with Dire Straits and the Police you can also add Joe Jackson, Elvis Costello and Nik Kershaw all made songs that was a protest against Punk with more sofisticated arangment, with inlcusion of different styles as Reagge, Ska, World Music, Pop, Funk and Blues/rock. Including Prince...
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'Symphony n°1' (feat Steve Vai) album is symphonic jazz :-) and IS prog to certain extent...I first discovered it while listening to a prog rock broadcast on radio...
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 09 2009 at 22:07 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
Yes, taste and I-pod selections have nothing to do with an addition. I think the OP was using them as a starting point for discussion rather than his main case, and, at least, indicating that he thought those songs were progressive.
Honestly, I don't see the point to say that this means something, it means nothing IMO, with the respect the opener of the thread deserves.
About misrepresenting: you took 'to add a band, the band doesn't need to have connection with Prog' completely out of the context of the sentence it was in. What Pablo clearly wasn't trying to say was that a band doesn't need to be related to prog to be added, but that if it has released a prog album, the band as a whole doesn't need to be 'related', by personnel or influence, to prog.
If a band has a Prog album, is automatically related to Prog,. that's simple logic, but still i can't find the slightest connection.
That seems to be site policy, from what I've heard over various threads, though I haven't been able to pinpoint where it's from.
If I believed they have a full Prog album, I would be supporting their addition to PR, but IMO it's not remotely the case.
Now, about the three routes of PR addition:
- Clearly musically influenced by progressive rock. A fifteen minute song with elaborate structure, loads of keyboards, a mix of improvised and pre-conceived music, a concept underlying it, etc. I think that shares so many features with progressive rock that you can at least say it's acting along the same lines, even if it's not obviously directly influenced by any particular progressive artist.
A long song with a concept is not necessarilly prog, and even when it was, a song in a career is not enough.
- Influence on the development of progressive rock. None whatsoever, I agree.
We agree
- Characteristics of progressive rock blended with the mainstream. Well, there are a few of them scattered throughout their albums, but, overwhelmingly, Love Over Gold remains the focus of my argument. That album has clearly got five out of the six characteristics which are cited as having 'defined all progressive rock' (see my post in the previous page) in the Symphonic Definition. It could have the sixth, I don't know. For that album, they should therefore be here.
You say it, a few of them, probably as most AOR bands or even Rock bands of the 70's, but the phrase is clear, please, complete the requirement, it also is said (I know, i wrote it):
creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog
The characteristics have to be EVIDENT, and that's not the case of Dire Straits
allmusic wrote:
Adding a new rhythm guitarist, Dire Straits expands its sounds and ambitions on the sprawling Love Over Gold. In a sense, the album is their prog rock effort |
I see the blues, country, folk, rock and pop, too. I also see a big album of overbearing progressive rock in the middle of it. I've seen a lot of others agreeing that that album is at least in part progressive rock, and more than a few agreeing that it is entirely progressive rock. The fact that the band is bringing together so many elements into long songs would sort of indicate a progressive intent to me.
Sort of a Progressive intent is not success i being a Prog Rock band or even related, plus i don't trust ALLMUSIC at all, after they wrote multiple descriptions like saying that Triumvirat is a Finnish Prog band "A La Focus", i had to send them 10 mails until they discovered that Triumvirat is German and has not the slightest relation with Focus.
If you've heard Love Over Gold, and you don't see any connection to prog in it stylistically, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. On the other hand, it does fit at least five of the six criteria stated by the site for a symphonic prog album. It's not Close To The Edge, but it's not all that far removed from Script For A Jester's Tear.
Oh please, Script of a Jester's is an album in the borderline that divides Symphonic with Neo prog, while Love Over Gold is in the borderline of AOR, POP, Folk and Blues Based Rock.
Site policy is, as far as I'm aware, one prog album = grounds for inclusion. Yeah, I admit it's not perfect when an artist has clearly released an overwhelming majority of non-prog material, but it's the system we've got, so it should be applied evenly.
But you even say that they have a few characteristics (that i don't see), then we are not talking about a full Prog album remotely.
Plus lets remember, no Prog site adds them (At least not GEPR, Proggnosis, Progressor or Progressive Ears, few of the ones I trust not as much as our's), so the approval would had to be by all the votes of the team formed by administrators, something that at least by Tony R's response and what I read from the rest of the Adms, in another thread, I doubt.
We should focus in adding real Prog bands, not in famous bands that have been in the market for decades and are not included anywhere as Prog.
My two cents.
Iván
PS: Look at this:
They were rejected in each and every case, a poll was 18 to 4 (81.87% against) and in the fourth thread every Administrator said no....I believe it's enough of this.
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Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - May 09 2009 at 22:20
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russellk
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Location: New Zealand
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 00:39 |
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'Love Over Gold' is a very interesting album in a prog rock context.
To my ears it has clearly been influenced by progressive rock. It is still mainly a standard rock album, but I can't help but hear the extension of rock, the complexity of the arrangements, the influence of classical music, and the uniqueness of the lyrical subject (who else has done a song on the geographical development of a ribbon urban area?) - and that is just 'Telegraph Road'. 'Private Investigations' is similarly an extension of classic rock, and the aroma of prog is all over it.
But as for the rest of the album, it's just pure Dire Straits, classic rock. 'Industrial Disease' is great fun, but in no way prog. 'It Never Rains' is a little more sophisticated, but nothing more than a rock song, as is the title track, lovely as it is.
Therefore, although the album has clearly been influenced by prog rock, it is not a 100% prog rock album.
This means Dire Straits cannot be included on this site as a prog band.
But are they prog related?
'Love Over Gold' is certainly related to prog, and a couple of tracks on 'Making Movies' are proggy, but in my opinion there simply isn't enough prog to qualify them as prog-related. And note: I'm usually an inclusive voice here.
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Diaby
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Joined: October 15 2007
Location: Hungary
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 06:43 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
What Pablo clearly wasn't trying to say was that a band doesn't need to be related to prog to be added, but that if it has released a prog album, the band as a whole doesn't need to be 'related', by personnel or influence, to prog. That seems to be site policy, from what I've heard over various threads, though I haven't been able to pinpoint where it's from.
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The same I wanted to express. Iván, I don't know why you verified your statement with my post.
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yeah
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TGM: Orb
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 21 2007
Location: n/a
Status: Offline
Points: 8052
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 07:18 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
TGM: Orb wrote:
Now, about the three routes of PR addition:
- Clearly musically influenced by progressive rock. A fifteen minute song with elaborate structure, loads of keyboards, a mix of improvised and pre-conceived music, a concept underlying it, etc. I think that shares so many features with progressive rock that you can at least say it's acting along the same lines, even if it's not obviously directly influenced by any particular progressive artist.
A long song with a concept is not necessarilly prog, and even when it was, a song in a career is not enough.
- Characteristics of progressive rock blended with the mainstream. Well, there are a few of them scattered throughout their albums, but, overwhelmingly, Love Over Gold remains the focus of my argument. That album has clearly got five out of the six characteristics which are cited as having 'defined all progressive rock' (see my post in the previous page) in the Symphonic Definition. It could have the sixth, I don't know. For that album, they should therefore be here.
You say it, a few of them, probably as most AOR bands or even Rock bands of the 70's, but the phrase is clear, please, complete the requirement, it also is said (I know, i wrote it):
creating a final product that despite not being part of the genre is evident that are close to Prog The characteristics have to be EVIDENT, and that's not the case of Dire Straits
allmusic wrote:
Adding a new rhythm guitarist, Dire Straits expands its sounds and ambitions on the sprawling Love Over Gold. In a sense, the album is their prog rock effort |
I see the blues, country, folk, rock and pop, too. I also see a big album of overbearing progressive rock in the middle of it. I've seen a lot of others agreeing that that album is at least in part progressive rock, and more than a few agreeing that it is entirely progressive rock. The fact that the band is bringing together so many elements into long songs would sort of indicate a progressive intent to me.
Sort of a Progressive intent is not success i being a Prog Rock band or even related, plus i don't trust ALLMUSIC at all, after they wrote multiple descriptions like saying that Triumvirat is a Finnish Prog band "A La Focus", i had to send them 10 mails until they discovered that Triumvirat is German and has not the slightest relation with Focus.
If you've heard Love Over Gold, and you don't see any connection to prog in it stylistically, I'm not going to be able to change your mind. On the other hand, it does fit at least five of the six criteria stated by the site for a symphonic prog album. It's not Close To The Edge, but it's not all that far removed from Script For A Jester's Tear.
Oh please, Script of a Jester's is an album in the borderline that divides Symphonic with Neo prog, while Love Over Gold is in the borderline of AOR, POP, Folk and Blues Based Rock.
Site policy is, as far as I'm aware, one prog album = grounds for inclusion. Yeah, I admit it's not perfect when an artist has clearly released an overwhelming majority of non-prog material, but it's the system we've got, so it should be applied evenly.
But you even say that they have a few characteristics (that i don't see), then we are not talking about a full Prog album remotely.
Plus lets remember, no Prog site adds them (At least not GEPR, Proggnosis, Progressor or Progressive Ears, few of the ones I trust not as much as our's), so the approval would had to be by all the votes of the team formed by administrators, something that at least by Tony R's response and what I read from the rest of the Adms, in another thread, I doubt.
We should focus in adding real Prog bands, not in famous bands that have been in the market for decades and are not included anywhere as Prog.
My two cents.
Iván
PS: Look at this:
They were rejected in each and every case, a poll was 18 to 4 (81.87% against) and in the fourth thread every Administrator said no....I believe it's enough of this.
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Just to keep my arguments clear, I'm not responding to specific sentences, though I believe I've herein answered all the substance of your post (for instance, the 'a song in a career' point is answered by the first paragraph, though I haven't made an effort in clearly highlighting that). The main characteristics of Symphonic are the ones that defined all
Progressive Rock: (There's nothing 100% new under the sun) which among
others are: - Mixture of elements from different genres.
- Complex time signatures.
- Lush keyboards.
- Explorative and intelligent lyrics, in some cases close to fantasy literature, Sci Fi and even political issues.
- Non commercial approach
- Longer format of songs
Except the underlined one, Love Over Gold CLEARLY meets all of these requirements. Those characteristics are evident to the point of undeniable. It could well meet the complex time signatures characteristic, I don't know. It's pretty much agreed that if the rest is in place, time signatures aren't a necessary ingredient (Pink Floyd, Post-Rock etc. would suggest this). Allmusic (you may not trust them, but the site still needs to keep in touch with those who are considering music history and have a relatively wide public regard) believes it's the band's progressive rock effort, Rolling Stone remarks it's ' In almost suicidal defiance of commercial good sense', particularly in the context of the early 80s, and it's 'a collection of radically expanded epics'. Even if the rest of Dire Straits output is at best sporadically progressive, if that album is prog, it merits inclusion.
About the previous threads. Well, yes, but even then I remember seeing a fair few replies saying that Love Over Gold is a prog album, but they don't think the band should be here anyway. In that case, their views would indicate that the band should be here according to site policy, but should not according to their preference. I'd also like to point out that three of those are in general music discussions, and don't appear to be an effort to get them added to the site.
Attainability doesn't equal merit. Yes, I understand it's unlikely that Dire Straits would be added no matter how reasonable an argument was made, and I understand it's easier and less controversial to add half a million retro-prog bands. My complaint is more that in the case of Dire Straits, the site is somewhat deliberately not implementing its policy (one album = band inclusion) consistently, which is more of a problem to its credibility than having a couple of harmless non-prog albums floating about in the prog-related category (we already have a lot of those from, say, Metallica or Kate Bush and, frankly, noone really cares about that).
In short, great if the admins/teams get on with adding new progressive rock... perhaps more worthwhile than this sort of debate, but I think it's healthy to have these sorts of debates every now and then, just to make sure we're keeping in touch with the fact that the exact definition of progressive, by its very nature, not fixed.
Script For A Jester's Tear and Love Over Gold are actually pretty damn similar from a stylistic point of view. Instrumentation, structure, dramatic flair, progressive rock created with an awareness of the mainstream. I'd say the latter is actually more 'progressive' as an album, in that it's creating progressive rock without clearly referencing previous progressive rock acts. Yes, it has one or two folk elements, a couple of pop elements (well, basically, it's only got melodies in that respect... it certainly doesn't conform to pop structures), and one more regularly structured (but nonetheless pretty bizarre) rocker, but really, these grounds of reference do not define the substance of the album. Scheherezade and Other Stories, for instance, though it leans heavily on classical and jazz props, is clearly a progressive rock album. Likewise, Love Over Gold.
Edit: and Russellk, that's another interesting and informed response. Much appreciated  Personally, I think the whole album is, to a lesser or greater extent, progressive rock. Industrial Disease is admittedly the least certain of that, with the quirky guitar, bizarre subject matter and choppy organ melody marking, at least, some progressive territory, and it still doesn't really sound like anything else out there. The classical sounding guitar, smooth piano and jazzy vibes on the title-track, I think, are certainly expanding the rock format... at least, it's not something I've heard anywhere else in the rock repertoire. It Never Rains... well, eight minute songs with keyboards tend to go down as progressive rock on my part, I'll have to take another listen to that one to see if there's anything more specific that led to me putting it in the prog rock pigeonhole.
Edited by TGM: Orb - May 10 2009 at 07:31
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Tony R
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 07:28 |
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I just think that the "characteristics of Symphonic" you quote show how difficult it is to define Prog Rock and that maybe you have proved that the definition and description need fine-tuning as when it comes down to it they could apply to all manner of musical genres.
If Dire Straits are Prog Rock then so is just about any Danny Elfman score I've heard, and just about any rock-based Move/TV Theme and Soundtrack that's ever been produced. Just because an artist produces expansive and imaginative rock music it doesn't necessarily follow that it is Prog.
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kenethlevine
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 08:53 |
StyLaZyn wrote:
No ABB, then no Dire Straits. |
forgive my ignorance but who is ABB?
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 09:42 |
TGM: Orb wrote:
Just to keep my arguments clear, I'm not responding to specific sentences, though I believe I've herein answered all the substance of your post (for instance, the 'a song in a career' point is answered by the first paragraph, though I haven't made an effort in clearly highlighting that).
THE SONG....That's all. not enough
The main characteristics of Symphonic are the ones that defined all Progressive Rock: (There's nothing 100% new under the sun) which among others are:
- Mixture of elements from different genres. They simply mix elements, not something particularyly complex or elaborate
- Complex time signatures. No way
- Lush keyboards. Not particularly
- Explorative and intelligent lyrics, in some cases close to fantasy literature, Sci Fi and even political issues. I agree, so Cat Stevens, Bob Dylan, etc and with more credentials are not here, because they are not Prog
- Non commercial approach Please, they always were a COMMRCIAL band, is incredible not to accept this
- Longer format of songs A few long songs are not Prog
Except the underlined one, Love Over Gold CLEARLY meets all of these requirements. Those characteristics are evident to the point of undeniable. It could well meet the complex time signatures characteristic, I don't know. It's pretty much agreed that if the rest is in place, time signatures aren't a necessary ingredient (Pink Floyd, Post-Rock etc. would suggest this). Allmusic (you may not trust them, but the site still needs to keep in touch with those who are considering music history and have a relatively wide public regard) believes it's the band's progressive rock effort, Rolling Stone remarks it's 'In almost suicidal defiance of commercial good sense', particularly in the context of the early 80s, and it's 'a collection of radically expanded epics'. Even if the rest of Dire Straits output is at best sporadically progressive, if that album is prog, it merits inclusion.
Honestly find no complexity at all.
About the previous threads. Well, yes, but even then I remember seeing a fair few replies saying that Love Over Gold is a prog album, but they don't think the band should be here anyway. In that case, their views would indicate that the band should be here according to site policy, but should not according to their preference. I'd also like to point out that three of those are in general music discussions, and don't appear to be an effort to get them added to the site.
The administratiors, the vast majority of members and all the Prog sites disagree with you, there must be a reason, they have been actiove since decades ago and not added to any Prog site, but
Attainability doesn't equal merit. Yes, I understand it's unlikely that Dire Straits would be added no matter how reasonable an argument was made, and I understand it's easier and less controversial to add half a million retro-prog bands.
Thuis bands you call Retro Prog, PLAY PURE PROGRESSIVE ROCK, NOT WATTERED POP, AOR, COUNTRY.
The term Retro Prog is negative and inaccurate, in this case it's absurd because Dire Straits was formed in 1977, an older band with no Prog mentions in any respectable Prog site.
My complaint is more that in the case of Dire Straits, the site is somewhat deliberately not implementing its policy (one album = band inclusion) consistently, which is more of a problem to its credibility than having a couple of harmless non-prog albums floating about in the prog-related category (we already have a lot of those from, say, Metallica or Kate Bush and, frankly, noone really cares about that).
Please is not a clearly Prog album, at the bast with shady relations with Prog Related, not enough
In short, great if the admins/teams get on with adding new progressive rock... perhaps more worthwhile than this sort of debate, but I think it's healthy to have these sorts of debates every now and then, just to make sure we're keeping in touch with the fact that the exact definition of progressive, by its very nature, not fixed.
It wouid be more healthy to focus in real Prog bands, not in commercial bands with almost any relation with Prog only because we like them.
Script For A Jester's Tear and Love Over Gold are actually pretty damn similar from a stylistic point of view. Instrumentation, structure, dramatic flair, progressive rock created with an awareness of the mainstream. I'd say the latter is actually more 'progressive' as an album, in that it's creating progressive rock without clearly referencing previous progressive rock acts. Yes, it has one or two folk elements, a couple of pop elements (well, basically, it's only got melodies in that respect... it certainly doesn't conform to pop structures), and one more regularly structured (but nonetheless pretty bizarre) rocker, but really, these grounds of reference do not define the substance of the album. Scheherezade and Other Stories, for instance, though it leans heavily on classical and jazz props, is clearly a progressive rock album. Likewise, Love Over Gold.
There's no relation in complexity, structure, influebnces, sound, indiovidual performances (except mark Knopfler). in nothing at all, not saying that Dire Strait is a bad band, simply not Prog at all, while Marillion is a pure Prog band.
Iván
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
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Posted: May 10 2009 at 10:03 |
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There seems to be a concerted effort to see every rock band in history that is highly-regarded for its musicianship elevated to Prog or Prog-Related status. How sad.
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Dire Straits: Prog-Related? YES.
